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Re: _hr-_ in Quenya

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn t be understood. By analogy
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 6 1:45 PM
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      Pavel Iosad tence:

      > Petri Tikka wrote:
      >
      > > another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_.
      >
      > I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem
      > wouldn't suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress
      > was retracted exactly to the first syllable:

      Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
      Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
      understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
      unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

      - Petri Tikka
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, ... It could be lost altogether. It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well,
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 6 2:00 PM
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        Hello,

        Petri Tikka wrote:

        > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
        > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
        > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
        > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

        It could be lost altogether.

        It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
        is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well, there's the Druedain - what
        would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?), and no attested
        Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither do most Semitic
        languages, by the way.

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
        --Scottish proverb
      • Petri Tikka
        ... Without the example _Hristo_
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 7 5:06 AM
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          Pavel Iosad tence:

          > Petri Tikka wrote:
          >
          > > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
          > > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
          > > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
          > > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.
          >
          > It could be lost altogether.

          Without the example _Hristo_ < _Christus_ (VT44:16,18), that would
          be a convincing arguement. The example is what I base my hypothesis on,
          otherwise that would be perfectly sensible and expectable. Please
          remember the previous posts of a thread, arguments don't exist
          without context.

          > It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
          > is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul

          Only Khuzdul? What about _María_ < Latin _Maria_ (VT43:28)?

          [There is also Valarin; see XI:397-407. -- PHW]

          >(well, there's the Druedain - what

          And what a surprise! That language does have a "consonant cluster in
          anlaut": _Drughu_ (UT:385).

          > would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?),

          I was writing about _Hristo_, or this thread wouldn't have arisen.

          [To answer Pavel's (perhaps rhetorical) question -- _Drughu_
          was adopted into Q. as _Rú_ and _Rúatan_, pl. _Rúatani_
          (UT:385 n.6). Compare this to DARÁK- > _*d'râk_, which
          yielded Q. _ráka_ 'wolf' (V:354). -- PHW]

          > and no attested Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither
          > do most Semitic languages, by the way.

          That's not relevant, since Quenya is known to have borrowed from Latin
          and Greek, internally or externally (of Tolkien's fiction).

          Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
          kari.j.tikka@...
          http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
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