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Re: _hr-_ in Quenya

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  • Pavel Iosad
    Hello, ... I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem wouldn t suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress was retracted exactly to
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 6, 2003
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      Hello,

      Petri Tikka wrote:

      > Cf. "RH represents a voiceless _r_ (usually dervied from older initial
      > _sr-_). It was written _hr_ in Quenya." (LR:1088). I know of no examples,
      > but another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_.

      I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem
      wouldn't suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress
      was retracted exactly to the first syllable:

      'The main (high-toned) stress was originally on the first syllable of
      all words, but in words of 3 or more syllables it had been moved forward
      to fall on the penultimate syllable, if that was long; if it was short,
      then the main stress fell on the antepenult irrespective of length (as
      in _éleni_).' (R:69)

      XI:366 also contains a reference to a 'retraction period', in connection
      with stress, one must note.

      Pavel
      --
      Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

      Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
      --Scottish proverb
    • Petri Tikka
      ... Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn t be understood. By analogy
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 6, 2003
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        Pavel Iosad tence:

        > Petri Tikka wrote:
        >
        > > another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_.
        >
        > I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem
        > wouldn't suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress
        > was retracted exactly to the first syllable:

        Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
        Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
        understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
        unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

        - Petri Tikka
      • Pavel Iosad
        Hello, ... It could be lost altogether. It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well,
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 6, 2003
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          Hello,

          Petri Tikka wrote:

          > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
          > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
          > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
          > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

          It could be lost altogether.

          It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
          is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well, there's the Druedain - what
          would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?), and no attested
          Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither do most Semitic
          languages, by the way.

          Pavel
          --
          Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

          Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
          --Scottish proverb
        • Petri Tikka
          ... Without the example _Hristo_
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 7, 2003
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            Pavel Iosad tence:

            > Petri Tikka wrote:
            >
            > > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
            > > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
            > > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
            > > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.
            >
            > It could be lost altogether.

            Without the example _Hristo_ < _Christus_ (VT44:16,18), that would
            be a convincing arguement. The example is what I base my hypothesis on,
            otherwise that would be perfectly sensible and expectable. Please
            remember the previous posts of a thread, arguments don't exist
            without context.

            > It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
            > is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul

            Only Khuzdul? What about _María_ < Latin _Maria_ (VT43:28)?

            [There is also Valarin; see XI:397-407. -- PHW]

            >(well, there's the Druedain - what

            And what a surprise! That language does have a "consonant cluster in
            anlaut": _Drughu_ (UT:385).

            > would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?),

            I was writing about _Hristo_, or this thread wouldn't have arisen.

            [To answer Pavel's (perhaps rhetorical) question -- _Drughu_
            was adopted into Q. as _Rú_ and _Rúatan_, pl. _Rúatani_
            (UT:385 n.6). Compare this to DARÁK- > _*d'râk_, which
            yielded Q. _ráka_ 'wolf' (V:354). -- PHW]

            > and no attested Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither
            > do most Semitic languages, by the way.

            That's not relevant, since Quenya is known to have borrowed from Latin
            and Greek, internally or externally (of Tolkien's fiction).

            Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
            kari.j.tikka@...
            http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
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