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_hr-_ in Quenya (was Re: Palatalization and Syllabification in Quenya)

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... Cf. RH represents a voiceless _r_ (usually dervied from older initial _sr-_). It was written _hr_ in Quenya. (LR:1088). I know of no examples, but
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 5 2:47 AM
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      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <dkiltz@g...> wrote:
      > Which may be indicative and may not. The Greek _i_ is also short. (Note
      > that _hr_ here stands by all likelihood for two sounds, representing
      > Greek "chi+rho". If _hr_ was indeed monophonemic, why would it have
      > been chosen over simple _r_ or e.g. _kr_. Do you think that _hr_
      > represents another sound than it does normally in Quenya ?).

      Cf. "RH represents a voiceless _r_ (usually dervied from older initial
      _sr-_). It was written _hr_ in Quenya." (LR:1088). I know of no examples,
      but another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_. The preceding voiceless
      sound would have devoiced the folowing voiced sound, and then dissapear.
      _kr-_ is an impossible option intially, since in Quenya does not tolerate
      consonant clusters in that position (cf. SD:417-418). Being conservative,
      the original (this time hypothetical) pronunciation of voiceless _r_ as
      voiceless is retained as its own grapheme by the Eldar.

      Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
      kari.j.tikka@...
      http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, ... I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem wouldn t suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress was retracted exactly to
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 6 12:05 PM
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        Hello,

        Petri Tikka wrote:

        > Cf. "RH represents a voiceless _r_ (usually dervied from older initial
        > _sr-_). It was written _hr_ in Quenya." (LR:1088). I know of no examples,
        > but another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_.

        I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem
        wouldn't suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress
        was retracted exactly to the first syllable:

        'The main (high-toned) stress was originally on the first syllable of
        all words, but in words of 3 or more syllables it had been moved forward
        to fall on the penultimate syllable, if that was long; if it was short,
        then the main stress fell on the antepenult irrespective of length (as
        in _éleni_).' (R:69)

        XI:366 also contains a reference to a 'retraction period', in connection
        with stress, one must note.

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
        --Scottish proverb
      • Petri Tikka
        ... Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn t be understood. By analogy
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 6 1:45 PM
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          Pavel Iosad tence:

          > Petri Tikka wrote:
          >
          > > another origin for _hr-_ might be _kr-_.
          >
          > I strongly doubt that. The first syllable of a KAR-initial stem
          > wouldn't suffer any kind of syncope in Quenya, since stress
          > was retracted exactly to the first syllable:

          Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
          Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
          understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
          unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

          - Petri Tikka
        • Pavel Iosad
          Hello, ... It could be lost altogether. It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well,
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 6 2:00 PM
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            Hello,

            Petri Tikka wrote:

            > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
            > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
            > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
            > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.

            It could be lost altogether.

            It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
            is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul (well, there's the Druedain - what
            would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?), and no attested
            Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither do most Semitic
            languages, by the way.

            Pavel
            --
            Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

            Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
            --Scottish proverb
          • Petri Tikka
            ... Without the example _Hristo_
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 7 5:06 AM
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              Pavel Iosad tence:

              > Petri Tikka wrote:
              >
              > > Yes, there was probably no _kr-_ in PQ, or at later stages before
              > > Quenya. I mean possible loan words, since the cluster couldn't be
              > > understood. By analogy with the only similar example _sr-_, initial
              > > unvoiced consonant followed by _r_, _kr-_ would be changed to _hr-_.
              >
              > It could be lost altogether.

              Without the example _Hristo_ < _Christus_ (VT44:16,18), that would
              be a convincing arguement. The example is what I base my hypothesis on,
              otherwise that would be perfectly sensible and expectable. Please
              remember the previous posts of a thread, arguments don't exist
              without context.

              > It might be noted that the only non-Eldarin language from which Quenya
              > is known to have borrowed is Khuzdul

              Only Khuzdul? What about _María_ < Latin _Maria_ (VT43:28)?

              [There is also Valarin; see XI:397-407. -- PHW]

              >(well, there's the Druedain - what

              And what a surprise! That language does have a "consonant cluster in
              anlaut": _Drughu_ (UT:385).

              > would you suggest the Quenya borrowing be, BTW?),

              I was writing about _Hristo_, or this thread wouldn't have arisen.

              [To answer Pavel's (perhaps rhetorical) question -- _Drughu_
              was adopted into Q. as _Rú_ and _Rúatan_, pl. _Rúatani_
              (UT:385 n.6). Compare this to DARÁK- > _*d'râk_, which
              yielded Q. _ráka_ 'wolf' (V:354). -- PHW]

              > and no attested Khuzdul word has a consonant cluster in anlaut. Neither
              > do most Semitic languages, by the way.

              That's not relevant, since Quenya is known to have borrowed from Latin
              and Greek, internally or externally (of Tolkien's fiction).

              Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
              kari.j.tikka@...
              http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
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