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Re: Tyelpetema and phonetics vs. phonology in Quenya

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  • Ales Bican
    [Sorry for such a belated responce: I meant to react to this letter, but was occupied by other things. -- ab] ... **First of all, I think there is no published
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 15, 2003
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      [Sorry for such a belated responce: I meant to react to this letter,
      but was occupied by other things. -- ab]

      Pavel Iosad wrote:

      > One long-standing problem in Quenya phonology has been the anomal
      > behaviour of the _tyelpetéma_ consonants with regard to syllable weight,
      > which is in turn connected with the permission/prohibition of long
      > vowels in non-final syllables and stress. That is, since Quenya does not
      > allow extra-heavy non-final syllables and at the same time a heavy
      > penult bears the stress, we are facing a problem of how to interpret the
      > (both well-attested) heavy weight of a syllable where a short vowel is
      > followed by a _tyelpetéma_ consonant (as in _hiruválye_, the acute
      > accent indicates stress) and the permitted long vowel in _máryat_ (this
      > time it is length that is indicated by the acute accent).

      **First of all, I think there is no published writing of Tolkien's
      where he would state Quenya does not permit, to simplify it, long
      vowels before consonant clusters. Or course, I may be wrong, so
      correct me.

      It is true that we do not practically find any example of this,
      there might be indications that it is possible, nevertheless. First,
      it might be just _máryat_ if _ry_ stands for a consonant cluster (which
      is possible). Then there is the form _Hrísto_ in a version of The
      Litany of Loreto (VT44:12). Yes, it might be a slip or we may argue it
      was changed to _Hristo_, but the striking fact is that Tolkien allowed
      it to stand at least for a while! Another important thing to mention
      is the presence of diphthongs before consonant clusters, at least _ai_
      in _aista-_. Diphthongs, at least for purposes of the stress, are
      treated like long vowels and are bimoraic.

      [_aista-_ 'to dread' (V:358) -- PHW]

      It must also be realized that what is written as Cy does not have to
      stand for a palatal(ized) sound. Surely _my_ in _lamya-_ "to sound"
      (Etym s.v. LAM) cannot stand for a palatal _m_, as no palatal _m_
      exists (as far as I know it is impossible). It might be a palatalized
      _m_ (which is not unusual). The question is whether the _y_ in _lamya_
      stands for [j] or whether _my_ is a digraph for [m'] (palatalized _m_,
      I will use the apostophe for palatalization). And the same can be
      applied to other Cy combinations: it is hard to say whether _ry_ in
      _máryat_ stands for [R] (palatal _r_, I will use capitals for palatals)
      or [r'] or [rj] (resp. [r'j]). How did Tolkien pronounce it in
      Namárie?

      I wonder how is this dealt with in the tengwar, though I am not sure
      if we have enough examples. Combinations Cy (i.e. consonant + y) are
      written with the tehta "following y" in Namárie (the same way the
      tyelpetéma was written according to App. E). This is a little bit
      problematic, since I think _my_ then might also be written as <malta>
      + y-tehta.

      With this are connected what I would call primary and secondary Cy
      combinations. Primary Cy combinations are those that existed from
      Primitive Quendian (resp. Common Eldarin). They occur exclusively
      word-initially. For instance _ny_ in _nyello_ which is derived from
      the base NYEL. Or _ty_ in _tyelpe_ which is from KYELEP. Probably
      even at the PQ/CE stage these Cy combinations stood for palatals
      (KY being a palato-velar). Then there are secondary Cy combinations
      which arose from the contact of C and y, mostly if a y-mopheme was
      suffixed: _van + ya_, _tul + ya_, _quend + ya_ etc.. What we do not
      know is whether e.g. _n + y_ in _vanya_ produced [N] or [n'j]/[nj].
      The same holds for _máryat_ and _hiruvalye_. There are some
      indications that (some) secondary Cy combinations stand for two sounds.
      I think I mentioned it in earlier posts: (a) in VT42:27 Tolkien
      mentioned that "_atatya_ remained [unreduced] because the second _a_
      was not syncopated, being in a long syllable"; (b) in a table in
      VT43:29, suffixes _-nye_ and _-lye_ seem to cause reduction of the
      length of the preceding vowel: _onye_ and _olye_ vs. _óni_ and _óle_.
      The latter example is expecially interesting, because the forms
      _onye_ and _olye_ are comparable with _máryat_ in structure.
      However, there is another fundamental thing to remember: published
      sources are from different stages of the development of Quenya and
      they do not have to compatible.

      Another thing must also be mentioned. Quenya does not like sequences
      of consonants much and if there is a sequence, it does not consist
      of more than two members. In other words, we do not see combinations
      of three and more consonants in Quenya. Nevertheless, we see
      combinations CCy: _nty_, _ndy_, _rty_ (_lty_ not attested), _sty_,
      and _hty_. This suggests that combinations Cy (at least _ty_ and
      _dy_) stand for single consonants.

      * * *

      The theory about morphemic boundary from _Introduction to Elvish_ was
      snipped, Pavel rejects it himself. Then he suggests that _á_ could be
      interpreted as biphomenatic, though he is not sure with this. However,
      I think it is not such impossible a theory, given that _á_ could be
      interpreted as bimoraic, as a succession of two identical vowels
      (i.e. _aa_). He then writes:

      > Besides, such an explanation fails to account for the _hiruvalye_ case.
      > Since the _a_ is short, we expect the penult to be closed. Thus, _ly_ is
      > bimoraic - whether a geminate or [l] + a glide (to which we will return
      > anon) - but if it is, it wouldn't be permitted initially, since Quenya
      > does not tolerate initial clusters. True, _lyenna_ - the only example of
      > initial _ly_ - is somewhat doubtful,

      **It certainly is. _lyenna_ seems to be our sole example of this.
      However, I spoke about the word-initial _ly_ with Helge Fauskanger
      long before the _lyenna_ phrase appeared and he said that he seemed
      to remember he had seen an example of a word-initial _ly_ somewhere,
      presumably it was a Qenya example, but he was not sure where he had
      seen it; he suggested some Vinyar Tengwar. Maybe the editors of VT
      and PE could help us?

      [Fauskanger's "Quenya-English wordlist" (downloadable at
      http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm) lists
      "_lyá_ ??? (_Narqelion_)". No page citation is provided, but
      Fauskanger is apparently referring to the analysis of _Narqelion_
      in _Parma Eldalamberon_ No. 9 (by Christopher Gilson and
      myself), which gives line 15 as _N-alalmino lyá lanta lasse_
      (PE9:14). However, _lyá_ in the PE9 transcription is in error,
      the analysis having been written before the complete con-
      tents of the Qenya Lexicon were available to us. In Christopher
      Gilson's post-QL presentation and analysis of _Narqelion_
      in VT40 (which scholars should consider the standard edition
      of this text) line 15 is corrected to _N-alalmino hyá lanta
      lasse_, with _hyá_ 'here by us' as in QL (PE12:41). -- PHW]

      Anyway, _lyenna_ is clearly a grammatical word. It was suggested that
      it might be an elided form of *_elyenna_, which is utterly possible.
      It also might be a product of analogy of forms like _tye_ (perhaps
      even *_nye_ which was also suggested). These forms would not bring
      any problem, since we normally see word-initial _ty_ and _ny_.
      As I said _lyenna_ is a grammatical word. By this I mean that it
      bears certain grammatical marks (it is therefore marked) and such
      forms may behave otherwise than other, unmarked, forms. An example
      of this may be _ciryant_ which appears in the Plotz Letter. In Letters
      no. 347 Tolkien stated that Quenya did not tolerate final consonants
      other than dentals; he repeated the same idea in VT42:7, mentioning
      _t, n, l, r_ (he forgot _s_). Hence _ciryant_ contradicts this
      statement, but as it is a grammatical (inflected) word, it is
      allowed to exist.

      > but the other _tyelpetéma_
      > consonant are perfectly allowed: _nyelle_, _tyelpe_ (I know it's not
      > quite pure Quenya, but it's an example all right), save _ry_, which
      > can't be there for historical reasons, and not because of an abhorrence
      > of initial _tyelpetéma_ liquids (there wouldn't be anyway a lot of
      > places for _ly_ to go if _tyelpetéma_ liquids were avoided, since _ry_
      > would also be impermissible and initial _d_ is forbidden).

      **In other words, an intial _d_ is not found (though _Aldudénie_ might
      be an example of this under certain assuptions), which does not
      necessarily mean it is forbidden. One would be inclined to say that
      a medial _ky_ is not permitted if _Erukyerme_ (UT) and _Ekyanáro_
      (VT41:14) were not attested.

      [Initial Q. _d-_ does occur rarely in QL in such forms as _die_
      'yesterday', _diéra_ (adj.) 'yesterday's; bygone, over, passed'
      < DYÊ- 'behind, back (before of time)' (PE12:105). The note
      "Inwelin forms such as _gw_, _dy_ also given" appearing at the
      head of the Y-entries in QL (PE12:104) suggests that these
      forms in _d-_ are from the Inwelin dialect -- interestingly,
      it has often been proposed that _Aldudénie_ is from the
      Vanyarin dialect of Quenya (the Vanyar replacing the Inwir
      in the later versions of Tolkien's mythology). -- PHW]

      > It would be
      > strange if part of the series was allowed initially and part not (_ry_
      > is a special case apparently).

      **That would, but it is not certain whether _ry_ is a member of
      the tyelpetéma, see below.

      > In the above discussion I have carefully avoided using the words
      > 'palatal' or 'palatalized' with reference to _tyelpetéma_ consonants,
      > since we should first determine whether they are the former or the
      > latter. I suggest they are palatalized.

      **I think members of the tyelpetéma are palatal consonants.
      Tolkien himself said that Quenya had a palatal series (tyelpetéma,
      LotR, Ap. E). In PE13:63, _ty_ is said to be "a very forward
      palatal stop foll[owed] by a distict _y_ off-glide". Also, the
      grouping of sounds in _The Qenya Phonology_ suggest that the
      _ty_-series was a palatal one (PE12:15).

      > One obvious reason is that we would then have problems with interpreting
      > _r_. A *palatal* _r_ (as opposed to palatalized) is simply nonexistent
      > in the world's languages, and even if it is, the nearest _I_ can come to
      > a palatal trill or flap is a retroflex approximant [...]

      **That is an importand fact, but actually it may mean nothing. The fact
      that a palatal _r_ seems to be nonexistent does not mean that it does
      not exist in Quenya. Although I am not familiar with any language
      possessing a palatal _r_, I read it occurred in a language called
      Malayalam (I read this in _Trends in Phonological Theory_ by Eli
      Fischer-Jorgensen p. 65). It is also supposed to have existed in old
      Czech (as a reflex of _rj_), but this does not mean anything.
      The existence of a palatal _r_ is, however, suggested in _The Alphabet
      of Rúmil_ in PE13. Tables R12 and R14 have signs for "front r or rj".
      However, first, it is not said whether these signs were used in Q(u)enya
      and secondly, other tables do not have these signs, though they have
      signs for _ly_ (R13, R17b, R18). On the other hand, the table R15
      (Qenya Grammar Excerpt) does not show any sign for either of them.
      Even _The Qenya Phonology_ (PE12) does not also seem to hint _ly_
      and _ry_ existed in Qenya. Of course, it is still Qenya and not Quenya,
      so the situation may be (and actually is) a little bit different in the
      LotR Quenya.

      A short discussion on [tS] snipped. Then follows:

      > _hy_ is somewhat a problem, since it apparently _is_ palatal.

      **This sound worries a little bit, since I am not very skilled in
      phonetics. I wonder whether is the same thing as [TH], that is,
      the palatal counterpart of [th], because all the tincotéma
      consonants (t, d, n + r, l) seem to have tyelpetéma counterparts
      (ty, dy, ny + ry, ly). Theoretically, there could be a combination
      _thy_ in a derivative of a root with coda _th_ (such as KHITH).
      If such a combination existed, what happened with it when
      _th_ was changed to _s_? Did _thy_ > _sy_? As I am not a
      phonetician, I cannot say whether there is a difference between
      _thy_ and _sy_ (whether the distinction strident/not-strident might
      exist even among palatals).

      (By the way, if combinations Cy stand for palatals, then there
      must have existed /S/ (i.e. a palatal _s_), realized as [Z] between
      vowels -- this was the source of _ry_ [R].)

      Let me note that the idea of _thy_ entered my mind when I saw
      VT8. It contains "Full Chart of the _Tengwar_" by Edouard
      Kloczko. I ordered the issue, because the item was marked as
      "contain[ing] previously unpublished primary material from the
      Tolkien archives" on the VT site. The chart is actually the one
      we know from LotR expanded by the tyelpetéma and the grade
      for aspirates. The names for the tyelpetéma are as follows: _tyelpe_,
      _indyo_, _ithtyar_, -- (aspirates do not have names), _intya_,
      _nyelle_ and _arya_. The tyelpetéma counterpart of _th_ is
      therefore not _thy_ but _thty_!

      I was (and still am) quite puzzled by this chart, because if it
      contains some previously unpublished information, I want(ed) to
      know more. I contacted Edouard therefore, but he did not appear
      to be very willing to talk about it with me, he only wrote to me
      that it had been him who had made the chart with his own brain.
      I wanted to ask Carl Hostetter about this but forgot to do it,
      so maybe I can ask now?

      [In Elfling message # 11088, Anders Stenström stated: "In his
      _Dictionnaire Quenya-Francais-Anglais_ Edouard Kloczko cites
      names given to him by Christopher Tolkien for the six tengwar of
      the tyelpetéma: _tyelpa_, _indyo_, _ithtyar_, _intya_, _nyelle_ and
      _arya_. In addition, there is a special name for _lambe_ with y-dots:
      _alya_." In reply, Carl pointed out that: "Edouard was _not_ given
      the name **_ithtyar_; instead, he altered the actual name, _istyar_,
      in accordance with his (false) belief that the _s_ in the name came
      from original _th_." -- PHW]

      [The part about palatalization in Russian snipped. -ab]

      > My suggestion is the following. The stress in _hiruvalye_ is to be
      > explained by the fact that Quenya stress, not being phonological, is
      > determined by purely phonetic environs, unlike the (phonemically
      > relevant) length.
      >
      > I would suggest that _ly_, being palatalized,

      **I think it is a palatal, being distinct to a palatalized _l_, which
      occured between _e, i_ and a consonant, cf. App. E s.v. L: "[_l_] was,
      however, to some degree 'palatalized' between _e, i_ and a consonant,
      or finally after _e, i_".

      > was articulated with a very audible [j] off-glide,

      **Which is utterly possible, cf. the citation about _ty_ from PE13
      above.

      > which had at some time become an additional
      > mora. So _ly_ is bimoraic, the first mora being the rhyme of the
      > preceding syllable and the second the onset of the next one.
      > *Phonologically* this _ly_ is single, as it *is* allowed initially.

      **Well, this may be possible. Yet it does not seem to me as a
      satisfying explanation, but then I have a lot to learn.

      [The part about Archi and Polish snipped. -- ab]

      > Now with regard to length, there is a different situation. Stress,
      > phonologically irrelevant in Quenya, can be determined by the purely
      > phonetic environs. Length, being phonologically important, should be
      > judged on the phonological level. Now if _ry_ is a single consonant (it
      > apparently is *phonologically*),

      **I do not think it is obvious.

      > then the syllable division in _máryat_
      > is _má+ryat_. There is the question of unattested syllable- (=word-)
      > initial _ry_, but the tendency for open syllables must be much stronger
      > than the tendency for maximum onsets.

      **Morphological criterion might also have played its role, because
      there is a morpheme boundary between _má_ and _rya(t)_. The same
      morpheme boundary is, however, between _ma_ and _nna(r)_ in
      _mannar_ (FS, LR:72). Here the geminated (or long) _n_ may also
      be phonologically a single consonant, though phonetically a succession
      of two identical consonants. For that matter there would be the same
      syllable division.

      [...]

      > Thus, my suggestion is the following: a CV[Cy]V sequence is phonetically
      > (for purposes of stress) divided into syllables as CV[C+y]V and
      > phonemically (relevant to length) as CV+[Cy]V.

      **While this may be possible, I think there are many uncertainties.


      Ales Bican

      --
      kurvannapi vyalíkáni yah. priyah. priya eva sah.
      anekadós.adus.t.ó 'pi káyah. kasya na vallabhah.
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, Ales Bican has raised several most interesting points in response to my proposals regarding the various domains of phonetics and phonology in Quenya
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 18, 2003
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        Hello,

        Ales Bican has raised several most interesting points in response to my
        proposals regarding the various domains of phonetics and phonology in
        Quenya with regard to the status of the tyelpetéma, for which I am most
        grateful. Now, on to the specifics.

        >**First of all, I think there is no published writing of Tolkien's
        >where he would state Quenya does not permit, to simplify it, long
        >vowels before consonant clusters. Or course, I may be wrong, so
        >correct me.

        Indeed you are correct. Nevertheless the lack of vowel lengthening in
        the perfect of _lelya-_, which exhibits nasal infixion, or in the
        present tense of verbs like _lanta_- shows that this shortening in
        closed syllables is regularly forced by the phonotactics. It would
        nicely be described by a generative-style phonology, where the
        morphological module would give a form like _lántar_, and the 'phonology
        proper' module would then give the actual output _lantar_).

        [snip examples of bimoraic segments before clusters]

        > Diphthongs, at least for purposes of the stress, are
        > treated like long vowels and are bimoraic.

        True. See below, however.

        > [_aista-_ 'to dread' (V:358) -- PHW]

        Also _aistana_ 'blessed' in AM, and _aista-_ in _Alcar i Ataren_.

        This may have to do with etymology, since *_aistana_, the editors inform
        us, can be connected with an old base like GAYA(S)- (VT43:38), which
        gives a formation like _*(g)aiastanâ_. Now the syncope of the second _a_
        is a bit hard to explain, it being in a long syllable. Or are we dealing
        with a special status of the _st_ group (it would also be possible to
        write the long vowel of _Hrísto_ off to the suggestion)? I am however at
        a loss at the moment as to how to explain it.

        >It must also be realized that what is written as Cy does not have to
        >stand for a palatal(ized) sound. Surely _my_ in _lamya-_ "to sound"
        >(Etym s.v. LAM) cannot stand for a palatal _m_, as no palatal _m_
        >exists (as far as I know it is impossible).

        Unless it were a coarticulated palato-labial nasal plosive, which is
        nowhere phonemic, though imaginable. (Well, there are no phonemic
        palato-whatever coarticulated stops, though it is not inconceivable that
        a _kp_ shift to a palato-labial before, say, front vowels. Just
        guessing, you might figure out)

        >It might be a palatalized _m_ (which is not unusual).

        We the Slavic-speaking ought to know ;-)

        > The question is whether the _y_ in _lamya_
        > stands for [j] or whether _my_ is a digraph for [m'] (palatalized _m_,
        > I will use the apostophe for palatalization).

        As I suggested, it might as well stand for a [t_jj], or, in your
        notation, [t'j], with the [j] approximant rather than the more of a
        fricative than it is in, say, Russian.

        >And the same can be applied to other Cy combinations:

        This is true, and in fact, can be used as an argument for my
        interpretation. If we consider the _my_ palatalized (which we apparently
        agree upon), it does mean that palatalization is a phonemically relevant
        feature. Offhand, I think that at least in Europe, languages which have
        a palatal series but do not consider palatalization phonemically
        relevant prevail over those which do both. Off the top of my head, the
        only instance of the second-type language is Macedonian. On the other
        hand, it has, as far as I remember, all but eliminated the old Slavic
        palatalization opposition. I am eager to be corrected though.

        > it is hard to say whether _ry_ in
        >_máryat_ stands for [R] (palatal _r_, I will use capitals for palatals)
        > or [r'] or [rj] (resp. [r'j]).

        In the official IPA table (cf., for instance,
        http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/fullchart.html; this one is quite in
        accord with the latest version of the IPA handbook I have access to),
        palatal taps/flaps or trills are not shaded (which means the
        articulation is considered possible), but do not have a symbol assigned,
        which means that no described languages has a phonemic sound of those
        types. Thus Quenya would be entirely untypological here, were there a
        palatal [r] (I am a bit uncomfortable with [R], as it stands for the
        uvular fricative in X-SAMPA)

        >I wonder how is this dealt with in the tengwar[...]

        So do I.

        >With this are connected what I would call primary and secondary Cy
        >combinations. Primary Cy combinations are those that existed from
        >Primitive Quendian (resp. Common Eldarin). They occur exclusively
        >word-initially.

        That isn't as obvious. Apparently you mean that certain word-initial
        consonants were palatalized, but then your use of 'combinations' is
        somewhat misleading. Combinations of C+_j_ were clearly present on the
        CE level, since medial combinations of this kind consistently turn out
        as tyelpetéma-consonants in Quenya, but also cause i-affection in
        Sindarin.

        > What we do not
        > know is whether e.g. _n + y_ in _vanya_ produced [N] or [n'j]/[nj].

        Indeed. That is what the whole problem hinges on, anyway.

        > The same holds for _máryat_ and _hiruvalye_. There are some
        > indications that (some) secondary Cy combinations stand for two
        sounds.
        > I think I mentioned it in earlier posts: (a) in VT42:27 Tolkien
        > mentioned that "_atatya_ remained [unreduced] because the second _a_
        > was not syncopated, being in a long syllable";

        Indeed. This is a very instructive example.

        Now the gist of my explanation is the following: sound-changes can be
        broadly divided into two classes, viz., phonetically driven and
        phonologically driven, and we should clearly distinguish the two fields
        when dealing with this part of the Eldarin language system.

        Syncope, for instance, is driven phonetically. From a phonological (here
        phonotactical) point of view, there is nothing inherently wrong with
        three consecutive syllables sharing a similar nucleus, phonetics
        however, aiming at easing of articulation, is the driving force behind
        the simplification of the 'redundant' elements. Since this is a phonetic
        rather than a phonological phenomenon, we should consider the _ty_ as a
        phonetic unit. According to my suggestion, _ty_ is *phonetically*
        bimoraic, and therefore the second syllable of _atatya_ is indeed
        closed.

        (As a rather important aside, I have quite forgotten to explain how, in
        my theory, the syllable boundary splits the [t_j] and the [j] if they
        are permissible word-initially. It is possible to suggest that
        bisegmental sequences are forbidden on both the phonetical and the
        phonological levels, so word-initially the _ty_'s and sundry could be
        pronounced without the glide owing to these constraints, but with it
        intervocalically. In post-pausal position, as after the nasals, it would
        of course be also pronounced in a single segment, but this does not
        create a lot of problems with regard to syllable division, since the
        preceding syllable would be closed anyway)

        [snip _óne_/_óle_ stuff]
        > However, there is another fundamental thing to remember: published
        > sources are from different stages of the development of Quenya and
        > they do not have to compatible.

        Indeed.

        >Another thing must also be mentioned. Quenya does not like sequences
        >of consonants much and if there is a sequence, it does not consist
        >of more than two members. In other words, we do not see combinations
        >of three and more consonants in Quenya. Nevertheless, we see
        >combinations CCy: _nty_, _ndy_, _rty_ (_lty_ not attested), _sty_,
        >and _hty_.

        Which further suggests that they are phonologically single, as Ales
        notes. One should however note the Ñoldorin shift _Quendya_ > _Quenya_
        (XI:361), which suggests the instability of the aforementioned
        combinations (this instability, coupled with the general abhorrence of
        voiced stops, contributes to the total loss of the [d_j]), and thus
        their somewhat indefinite status.

        > The theory about morphemic boundary from _Introduction to Elvish_ was
        > snipped, Pavel rejects it himself.

        It doesn't stand up to evidence anyway, since _hir+uva+lye_ is stressed
        _hiruválye_.

        [...]
        > _lyenna_ - the only example of
        > initial _ly_ - is somewhat doubtful,

        > Anyway, _lyenna_ is clearly a grammatical word. [...]
        > By this I mean that ['grammatical words']
        > bear[] certain grammatical marks (it is therefore marked) and such
        > forms may behave otherwise than other, unmarked, forms. An example
        > of this may be _ciryant_ which appears in the Plotz Letter. In Letters
        > no. 347 Tolkien stated that Quenya did not tolerate final consonants
        > other than dentals; he repeated the same idea in VT42:7, mentioning
        > _t, n, l, r_ (he forgot _s_). Hence _ciryant_ contradicts this
        > statement, but as it is a grammatical (inflected) word, it is
        > allowed to exist.

        Indeed. It can be suggested that the instability referred to above
        contributed towards the gradual elimination of the strict phonotactical
        system. The presence of sequences usually realised bisegmentally in
        initial position and the suppression of the bisegmentality can be a
        driving force behind this weakening of structure. The weakening leads to
        possible overriding of phonotactics by the constraints of grammar (resp.
        the _ciryant_ case) or phonetics (which is what we are discussing).

        After all, it must be noted that the mere fact of the phonologically
        irregular stress in _hiruvalye_ points that the form is marked,
        otherwise its formation would be blocked by a rule higher on the
        hierarchy (i. e. more marked)

        [...]
        >**In other words, an initial _d_ is not found (though _Aldudénie_ might
        >be an example of this under certain assumptions), which does not
        >necessarily mean it is forbidden.

        But cf. L:1094-5, where the phrase definitely says that the /b g gw/
        were only met in conjunction with the nasals, and /d/, from the turn of
        the phrase, is only met after /n l r/. (There's also Christopher's
        apparent slip in UT, where he gives the name of a Númenórean city as
        _Almaida_, it should apparently be #_Almalda_)

        > One would be inclined to say that
        > a medial _ky_ is not permitted if _Erukyerme_ (UT) and _Ekyanáro_
        > (VT41:14) were not attested.

        By the way, if you asked me, I'd give these as probable candidates for
        palatal rather than palatalized stops; the articulatory mecanism is the
        same as behind the palatal status of _hy_, for which see my original
        post. If we suggest that _ty_ is palatal, then these are just
        alternative orthographies, if it is palatalized, Quenya falls into the
        Macedonian category. A third possibility is that _ky_ is an alternative
        orthography for palatalized _ty_, but this is unlikely.

        >> In the above discussion I have carefully avoided using the words
        >> 'palatal' or 'palatalized' with reference to _tyelpetéma_ consonants,
        >> since we should first determine whether they are the former or the
        >> latter. I suggest they are palatalized.

        >**I think members of the tyelpetéma are palatal consonants.
        >Tolkien himself said that Quenya had a palatal series (tyelpetéma,
        >LotR, Ap. E).

        The distinction between 'palatal' and 'palatalized' can be blurry,
        especially for one who isn't deep into synchronic phonology. Tolkien
        surely knew about it, but it wasn't his primary area of interest (which
        is probably why we seldom get any coherent synchronic picture of
        Tolkien's invented languages - it doesn't possess an independent value
        for Tolkien, and is justified by writing poetry, cf. the passage in 'The
        Secret Vice'). If _ty_ were palatal, it is difficult to justify why
        Tolkien described it as 'similar to English _t_ in _tune_' (L:1088)',
        since the sound is not palatal (but rather, in British speech,
        pronounced with a glide!). Also he might have included the Spanish ñ as
        a description of NY in the Appendix (though this is of no value as an
        argument)

        [Snip another example of probable confusion between 'palatal' and
        'palatalized']

        >> One obvious reason is that we would then have problems with
        interpreting
        >> _r_. A *palatal* _r_ (as opposed to palatalized) is simply
        nonexistent
        >> in the world's languages, and even if it is, the nearest _I_ can come
        to
        >> a palatal trill or flap is a retroflex approximant [...]

        > **That is an importand fact, but actually it may mean nothing. The
        fact
        > that a palatal _r_ seems to be nonexistent does not mean that it does
        > not exist in Quenya. Although I am not familiar with any language
        > possessing a palatal _r_, I read it occurred in a language called
        > Malayalam (I read this in _Trends in Phonological Theory_ by Eli
        > Fischer-Jorgensen p. 65).

        See above, on the IPA table.

        > It is also supposed to have existed in old
        > Czech (as a reflex of _rj_), but this does not mean anything.

        That is rather off-topic, but that is somewhat strained to me. As I
        understand, the transition from palatalized [r] to the Czech r-haczek
        (coarticulated [r] and [Z] as in 'pleasure') only implies the addition
        of the fricative character and removal of the flap, and does not
        necessarily imply a back-and-forth place of articulation shift.

        [...]

        > _hy_ is somewhat a problem, since it apparently _is_ palatal.

        >I cannot say whether there is a difference between
        >_thy_ and _sy_ (whether the distinction strident/not-strident might
        >exist even among palatals).

        I don't think so, as the strident/non-strident distinction is very
        difficult to handle by the dorsum. The IPA also confirms that the
        distinction, even if existent, is apparently nowhere phonemic.

        > (By the way, if combinations Cy stand for palatals, then there
        > must have existed /S/ (i.e. a palatal _s_), realized as [Z] between
        > vowels -- this was the source of _ry_ [R].)

        Let me note that the presence of intervocalic voicing of _s_ (with or
        without rhotacism) does not necessarily imply voicing of other
        fricatives. True, the Germanic languages voice both the _s_ and the /f þ
        x/ series, but Latin had rhotacism but not voicing of other fricatives.
        This is not a very good example, since Latin does not possess
        intervocalic fricatives word-internally (the initial ones stem from the
        IE voiced aspirates, which were realized word-medially in Italic as
        voiced unaspirated stops), and thus the morpheme boundary (as in
        _de+fici+o_ or _de+fend+o_) can contribute to the lack of voicing. I am
        sure other examples can be found though.

        [...]
        >> My suggestion is the following. The stress in _hiruvalye_ is to be
        >> explained by the fact that Quenya stress, not being phonological, is
        >> determined by purely phonetic environs, unlike the (phonemically
        >> relevant) length.
        >>
        >> I would suggest that _ly_, being palatalized,

        >**I think it is a palatal, being distinct to a palatalized _l_, which
        >occured between _e, i_ and a consonant, cf. App. E s.v. L: "[_l_] was,
        >however, to some degree 'palatalized' between _e, i_ and a consonant,
        >or finally after _e, i_".

        The part about 'to some degree' worries me a lot. I don't know much
        about degrees of palatalization in European languages (since the Russian
        non-palatalized [l] is heavily velarized, which interferes a lot), but
        it seems possible that the palatalization distinction could possess
        three grades.

        [...]
        >> Now with regard to length, there is a different situation. Stress,
        >> phonologically irrelevant in Quenya, can be determined by the purely
        >> phonetic environs. Length, being phonologically important, should be
        >> judged on the phonological level. Now if _ry_ is a single consonant
        (it
        >> apparently is *phonologically*),

        >**I do not think it is obvious.

        I never said it was obvious. This situation is difficult to resolve
        (just as in natural languages), since not one of the two tests
        applicable to Quenya (whether the consonant makes a syllable closed;
        whether it can be word/syllable-initial) is not applicable to the sound
        in question - the first test is what we are discussing, the second one
        is inapplicable in case of word-initial [ry] because there's just no
        possible etymology for an initial [ry] (unless a RY-root is found), in
        case of internal syllable-initial because the first element of a cluster
        is either a nasal or a spirant fricative, both of which tend to
        assimilate with [r] and blur the distinctions.

        >> then the syllable division in _máryat_
        >> is _má+ryat_. There is the question of unattested syllable- (=word-)
        >> initial _ry_, but the tendency for open syllables must be much
        stronger
        >> than the tendency for maximum onsets.
        >
        >**Morphological criterion might also have played its role, because
        >there is a morpheme boundary between _má_ and _rya(t)_. The same
        >morpheme boundary is, however, between _ma_ and _nna(r)_ in
        >_mannar_ (FS, LR:72). Here the geminated (or long) _n_ may also
        >be phonologically a single consonant, though phonetically a succession
        >of two identical consonants. For that matter there would be the same
        >syllable division.

        The forcing of the vowel shortening here definitely shows that the
        syllable division is _man+nar_. Had Quenya not possessed single
        intervocalic nasals, the situation would be just like the Archi system
        described in my original post, but it just doesn't.

        [...]
        >> Thus, my suggestion is the following: a CV[Cy]V sequence is
        phonetically
        >> (for purposes of stress) divided into syllables as CV[C+y]V and
        >> phonemically (relevant to length) as CV+[Cy]V.
        >
        >**While this may be possible, I think there are many uncertainties.

        Indeed there are, that's just why I posted this :-)

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
        --Scottish proverb
      • David Kiltz
        On the subject of palatalized consonants I think it is paramount to hold up the distinction between primary and secondary palatalized sounds, as pointed out
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 19, 2003
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          On the subject of "palatalized" consonants I think it is paramount to
          hold up the distinction between primary and secondary palatalized
          sounds, as pointed out by Ales Bican.
          Also, it is important to look at the (historical) formation of the
          words in question to understand their behaviour.
          As the examples adduced by Pavel Iosad and Ales Bican show combinations
          such as Cy and Ry, when deriving from C+y, R+y, are biphonemic in
          Quenya and form long syllables.
          As phonetics tell us, a syllable ideally starts with a higher degree of
          consonanticity followed by a sound with a lower value. A somewhat
          simplified consonanticity hierarchy may look like this: Occlusives >
          Spirants (Sibilants, s having a special status) > Nasals > L,R >
          "half-vowels". We may call these sounds then class 1,2,3,4, and 5.
          Word-initially Quenya seems to allow for the following combinations:
          1 + 5 (cf. _tyulusse, tyálie_),
          2 + 5 (cf. _hyarin_ < SWAR-. As "h" probably represents [ç] here, it
          should be treated as a spirant which, historically, it certainly is.),
          3 + 5 (cf. _nyello_),
          4 + 5 (doubtful, _lyenna_ ?).
          -Note: For completness a class 6 (vowels) belongs here. It has been
          left out for obvious reasons. Any class + 6 would work.-
          Adding to this, PQ allows for the following additional combinations: s
          + 1, 3, 4, 5. (Abundant examples can be found in V, "The Etymologies".
          Of course, certain combinations within these classes do not occur, e.g.
          p+y. This is most probably due to euphonic reasons.
          Given the attested Quenya words, I will argue that Quenya in principle
          honours the biphonemic rule but may, under certain historical
          circumstances, allow for a different syllabification.
          Case 1) The obvious instance where e.g. _ty_ is primary and hence
          monophonemic. Cf. _intya-_.
          Case 2) _máryat_. In my view this is not a violation of the biphonemic
          rule but has to be syllabified as má (<ma3-) +ryat. The division is
          due to morphological reasons and is phonetically permissible since a
          syllable-initial cluster "ry" is in accord with the consonanticity
          hierarchy for syllable-onsets outlined above.

          Now for the case of _aistana-_.

          In "The Etymologies" one can see that PQ (or PE) allowed for a wide
          range of s + C clusters initially.
          Excursus: On the peculiarity of "s" in consonant clusters.
          In many languages it can be seen that "s" in consonant cluster does not
          behave in accord with the regular consonanticity hierarchy but can
          apparently be added at certain points without appending any extra
          weight to the cluster. Rather on the contrary it would seem.
          I will exemplify what I mean on the basis of the Indo-European language
          family.

          The special status can (very briefly indeed) be shown by the following:
          1) I.-E. does not, in principle, allow for word inital consonant
          clusters running counter to the c. h. with the exception of s + C
          (leaving laryngeals aside for the moment).
          2) Certain consonant clusters are "split open" by an intrusive "s" in
          I.-E. Cf. the ubiquitous treatment of dental + dental in I.-E.:
          _*wid-to-_ ("seen, known", root _*weid-_) Sanskrt. _vitta_, Avest.
          _vista_, OE. _wiss_ etc. These forms go back to an intermediate
          _*witsto-_.
          Apparently a cluster _d-t_ which is not permissible in Indo-European,
          is facilitated by the insertion of "s". Similarly in cases such as
          I.-E. _*louksnaH_ "moon" (< _*louk+naH_) which is derived from the root
          _*leuk-_ "to shine", cf Greek _leukós_ "white", NHG _Lohe_ "flame",
          Latin _lucere_, Sanskrt. _roc-_ "to shine etc. Again, the cluster "k+n"
          is split up (clearly for phonetic reasons) to yield ultimately Latin
          _lúna_, avest. _raoxshna_ etc.
          Other phenomena belong here too but would call for too long
          explanations.
          End excursus.

          The special behaviour of "s" that can be seen e.g. in Indo-European
          also seems to feature in PQ (PE). As I argued in the case of _máryat_,
          Quenya seems to allow certain PQaic clusters at the onset of a syllable
          which it has otherwise simplified word-initially.
          Hence, I would suggest that this is the case for "st", too.
          _Aistana-_ is therefore to be syllabified as _ai-stana_.

          If this appraisal of the situation is correct, it not only rids us of
          "overlong" syllables in Quenya but would give us a more detailed
          picture of what syllable-onsets are permissible in Quenya and for what
          reason.

          David Kiltz
        • Pavel Iosad
          David Kiltz has set forth a theory proposing how one can resolve the difficulty regarding the apparent violations of the syllable weight limitation. While I
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 19, 2003
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            David Kiltz has set forth a theory proposing how one can resolve the
            difficulty regarding the apparent violations of the syllable weight
            limitation. While I agree with the principle, I have to point out
            several issues that, in my opinion, need more dwelling upon.

            [...]
            > As the examples adduced by Pavel Iosad and Ales Bican show
            > combinations such as Cy and Ry, when deriving from C+y, R+y,
            > are biphonemic in Quenya and form long syllables.
            > As phonetics tell us, a syllable ideally starts with a higher
            > degree of consonanticity followed by a sound with a lower value.
            > A somewhat simplified consonanticity hierarchy may look like
            > this: Occlusives > Spirants (Sibilants, s having a special status) >
            > Nasals > L,R > "half-vowels". We may call these sounds then class
            > 1,2,3,4, and 5.

            While this is good, I feel compelled to point out that the special status
            of 's' appears to be a specific Indo-European feature, provoked, I'd
            suggest, by the special status of 's' in the PIE sound system, it being
            the only non-laryngeal fricative. This markedness of the sound and its
            important role in the root-building process (witness the 's-mobile')
            give it a certain special status. 's' is not always the most consonant
            sound. While I cannot think of any non-Indo-European examples off the
            top of my head (I'm not taking modern Slavic languages into account
            here, since they have killed the IE syllable structure, witness a word
            like Polish _pstra,g_ 'salmon'), but Ancient Greek, for instance allows
            initial combinations of the _muta cum liquida_ type (_prosêkei_, _khraô_
            etc. etc.), sC ones (_sphallô_) *and* Cs - _pseudomai_. Thus the
            consonanticity status of 's' is actually ambiguous. It is also
            demonstrated by the fact that Romance languages (and not only Romance)
            did develop a prosthetic vowel before Latin initial sT(R)- groups (Fr.
            _écrire_, Sp. _escrebo_, Welsh _ysgrifennu_), because a sT(R)- onset is
            somehow uncomfortable (compare this with the appearance of the
            prosthetic vowel before undoubtedly offending clusters, as in Russian
            _rzhanoj_ 'of rye', Byelorussian _arzhany_, Rus. _mgla_ 'mirk', Byel.
            _imgla_). It must also be noted that a Latin word like _magister_ is
            stressed _magíster_, not *_mágister_ as it would were the medial -st-
            tautosyllabic (i. e. fully identical to the _muta cum liquida_ group in
            _emígrô_).

            > Word-initially Quenya seems to allow for the following combinations:
            > 1 + 5 (cf. _tyulusse, tyálie_),
            > 2 + 5 (cf. _hyarin_ < SWAR-. As "h" probably represents [ç] here, it
            > should be treated as a spirant which, historically, it certainly is.),
            > 3 + 5 (cf. _nyello_),
            > 4 + 5 (doubtful, _lyenna_ ?).
            [...]
            > Given the attested Quenya words, I will argue that Quenya in principle
            > honours the biphonemic rule but may, under certain historical
            > circumstances, allow for a different syllabification.
            > Case 1) The obvious instance where e.g. _ty_ is primary and hence
            > monophonemic. Cf. _intya-_.

            Indeed, if the _Cy_'s are monophonemic, this is not much of a problem

            > Case 2) _máryat_. In my view this is not a violation of the biphonemic
            > rule but has to be syllabified as má (<ma3-) +ryat. The division is
            > due to morphological reasons and is phonetically permissible since a
            > syllable-initial cluster "ry" is in accord with the consonanticity
            > hierarchy for syllable-onsets outlined above.

            While it certainly is in accord with the hierarchy, it must be mentioned
            that Quenya does avoid clusters of that type, because, as David notes,
            the phonetic rules do require that a consonant cluster where the first
            element is more consonantic than the first one be tautosyllabic (i. e.
            the syllable boundary should not split it). VT42:26 says:

            '...the strong predilection which Quenya showed for the sequences of
            sonants: _m_, _n_, _ñ_; _l_, _r_ before stops, as against those in which
            the sonants followed. Transposition also occurs in Quenya in ancient
            forms of _tr_, _tl_, etc. > _rt_, _lt_'

            With this confer Quenya _alcar_ 'glory' from AKLA-R, cognate with
            Noldorin/Sindarin _aglar_ (V:348). The very point here is that the
            sequences, being of the 1 + 3 or 1 + 4 types (in David's notation),
            require to be regarded as parts of one syllable. But the reversal argues
            to support the point made in IX:417-8, that Quenya does not tolerate
            onsets of more than segment (confer the lack of the reversal in
            Sindarin, which does allow initial mutae cum liquidis), even if they
            comply with the consonanticity/sonority hierarchy rules.

            > Now for the case of _aistana-_.
            > In "The Etymologies" one can see that PQ (or PE) allowed for a wide
            > range of s + C clusters initially.

            However, if one suggests that Quenya did so as well, one may well wonder
            why the initial _st-_ was simplified to _s_. (I realise this is however
            weak as an argument, being _ex nihilo_).

            > Excursus: On the peculiarity of "s" in consonant clusters.

            [snip excursus on the special behaviour of _s_ in IE]

            > The special behaviour of "s" that can be seen e.g. in Indo-European
            > Also seems to feature in PQ (PE).

            Now there is also the question of what to allow as initial PQ clusters.
            There is no compelling need to suggest initial /MB ND ÑG/ are single
            phonemes in PQ. The African languages where such consonants are viewed
            as single phonemes do not allow any other initial clusters, which is not
            the case in PQ. There is also a solution in the lines of Modern Greek,
            where the /mp nt ng/ used to substitute voiced stops in loans, as in
            _mpar_ 'bar', but as opposed to the /mp/ type, /mb/ cluster are
            semiotically suspect (just as the traditional PIE reconstruction, which
            can be a strong argument *for*).

            > As I argued in the case of _máryat_, Quenya seems to allow certain
            > PQaic clusters at the onset of a syllable which it has otherwise
            > simplified word-initially.

            It can, apparently, true; but I am at a loss to reconcile this with the
            stress in _hiruvalye_.

            > Hence, I would suggest that this is the case for "st", too.
            > _Aistana-_ is therefore to be syllabified as _ai-stana_.

            ...and _Hrísto_ as _Hrí-sto_. This would also explain the syncope which
            must have given the form _aistana_ rather than *_aiastana_.

            Alternatively, one can suggest that in _aistana_ that _ai_ is not a
            diphthong, but rather two vowels on the model of _oïkta_ in Narqelion
            (see Christopher Gilson's article in VT40). The only problem with this
            is that Tolkien did not mark it as such. Only too bad.

            In spite of the above criticism, I think this is very much possible
            theoretically and even not unlikely (in fact, I implicitly suggested
            this in my latest post ('Or are we dealing with a special status of the
            _st_ group [...]?)), and can be reconciled with the explanation I have
            been propounding. One can then ascribe a special (near-monophonemic?)
            status to the _st_ group and describe the lack of bisegmental initial
            realization as a marked situation. This however raises several problems,
            such as lack of a _sC_ in words from SC-initial roots when that group is
            intervocalic (_Nurufantur_ rather than *_Nuruspantur_. Overall, this is
            a complex case (surprise, surprise...).

            Pavel
            --
            Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

            Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
            --Scottish proverb
          • David Kiltz
            On Mittwoch, Februar 19, 2003, at 03:50 Uhr, Pavel Iosad wrote: [...] ... They are two things. Yes, s also has a special status in I.-E. because it
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 19, 2003
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              On Mittwoch, Februar 19, 2003, at 03:50 Uhr, Pavel Iosad wrote:

              <snip>
              [...]
              >> As the examples adduced by Pavel Iosad and Ales Bican show
              >> combinations such as Cy and Ry, when deriving from C+y, R+y,
              >> are biphonemic in Quenya and form long syllables.
              >> As phonetics tell us, a syllable ideally starts with a higher
              >> degree of consonanticity followed by a sound with a lower value.
              >> A somewhat simplified consonanticity hierarchy may look like
              >> this: Occlusives > Spirants (Sibilants, s having a special status) >
              >> Nasals > L,R > "half-vowels". We may call these sounds then class
              >> 1,2,3,4, and 5.
              >
              > While this is good, I feel compelled to point out that the special
              > status of 's' appears to be a specific Indo-European feature,
              > provoked, I'd suggest, by the special status of 's' in the PIE
              > sound system, it being the only non-laryngeal fricative.

              They are two things. Yes, "s" also has a special status in I.-E.
              because it is the only spirant or fricative (next to the laryngeals).
              That is not the relevant point here though, I think. No other fricative
              serves the same function in later I.-E. languages (e.g. ph, th, kh). It
              is also noteworthy that "s" is not a homorganic fricative to any other
              sound in I.-E. Its "intervening" function can hardly be "just"
              explained by the fact that it is a fricative. Ultimately, the reason
              will be phonetic (i.e. biology).

              > This markedness of the sound and its
              > important role in the root-building process (witness the 's-mobile')
              > give it a certain special status.

              While true I, again, don't think that has anything to do with the
              point at hand. What matters is that such combinations are
              *phonetically* possible.

              <here follows an account on certain behaviours of consonant clusters. I
              agree with the phenomena but don't see how that changes anything>.

              Just for interest: Sino-Tibetan seems to exhibit similar behaviour (as
              PIE in respect to "s").

              <snip>
              >
              >> Case 2) _máryat_. In my view this is not a violation of the biphonemic
              >> rule but has to be syllabified as má (<ma3-) +ryat. The division is
              >> due to morphological reasons and is phonetically permissible since a
              >> syllable-initial cluster "ry" is in accord with the consonanticity
              >> hierarchy for syllable-onsets outlined above.
              >
              > While it certainly is in accord with the hierarchy, it must be
              > mentioned
              > that Quenya does avoid clusters of that type, because, as David notes,
              > the phonetic rules do require that a consonant cluster where the first
              > element is more consonantic than the first one be tautosyllabic (i. e.
              > the syllable boundary should not split it). VT42:26 says:

              Where the first element is more consonantic than the first one. There
              must be a typo here.

              > '...the strong predilection which Quenya showed for the sequences of
              > sonants: _m_, _n_, _ñ_; _l_, _r_ before stops, as against those in
              > which
              > the sonants followed. Transposition also occurs in Quenya in ancient
              > forms of _tr_, _tl_, etc. > _rt_, _lt_'
              >
              > With this confer Quenya _alcar_ 'glory' from AKLA-R, cognate with
              > Noldorin/Sindarin _aglar_ (V:348). The very point here is that the
              > sequences, being of the 1 + 3 or 1 + 4 types (in David's notation),
              > require to be regarded as parts of one syllable. But the reversal
              > argues
              > to support the point made in IX:417-8, that Quenya does not tolerate
              > onsets of more than segment (confer the lack of the reversal in
              > Sindarin, which does allow initial mutae cum liquidis), even if they
              > comply with the consonanticity/sonority hierarchy rules.

              I don't follow the argument. _AKLAR_ is _ak-lar_. The metathesis
              provides a softer syllable ending (l) and the highest possible degree
              of consonanticity for the syllable onset (k).
              Why would you syllabify AKLAR as _a-klar_ ? Maybe I didn't understand
              correctly.

              Note that I made mention only of a case of 4+5.

              >> Now for the case of _aistana-_.
              >> In "The Etymologies" one can see that PQ (or PE) allowed for a wide
              >> range of s + C clusters initially.
              >
              > However, if one suggests that Quenya did so as well, one may well
              > wonder
              > why the initial _st-_ was simplified to _s_. (I realise this is however
              > weak as an argument, being _ex nihilo_).

              I didn't suggest that. I suggested that Quenya kept that possibility
              inside a word.

              <snip>
              >> The special behaviour of "s" that can be seen e.g. in Indo-European
              >> Also seems to feature in PQ (PE).
              >
              > Now there is also the question of what to allow as initial PQ clusters.
              > There is no compelling need to suggest initial /MB ND ÑG/ are single
              > phonemes in PQ. The African languages where such consonants are viewed
              > as single phonemes do not allow any other initial clusters, which is
              > not the case in PQ. There is also a solution in the lines of Modern
              > Greek, where the /mp nt ng/ used to substitute voiced stops in
              > loans, as in _mpar_ 'bar', but as opposed to the /mp/ type, /mb/
              > cluster are semiotically suspect (just as the traditional PIE
              > reconstruction, which can be a strong argument *for*).

              MB, ND, ÑG, (ÑGw) are described as the corresponding nasals to
              parmatéma, tincotéma, calmatéma, and quessetéma. I think they are to be
              understood as monophonemic. The African example is not compelling.
              While the lack of initial clusters in those languages points to the
              fact that MB etc. aren't as well, in those languages, the reverse is
              not necessarily true. Just because PQ has some initial clusters, MB
              etc. don't have to be too.

              I don't understand the point about Modern Greek. "mp" etc. are only
              graphical for [b]. This is a question of the writing system.

              I don't know what traditional PIE recontruction you refer to. Glottalic
              vs non- glottalic ? It can be a strong argument for what ?

              >> As I argued in the case of _máryat_, Quenya seems to allow certain
              >> PQaic clusters at the onset of a syllable which it has otherwise
              >> simplified word-initially.
              >
              > It can, apparently, true; but I am at a loss to reconcile this with the
              > stress in _hiruvalye_.

              In _hiruvalye_ the a is short. Hence it is to be syllabified
              _hi-ru-val-ye_. That's quite regular. l+y are biphonematic here and
              hence we have a long syllable. I fail to see a problem here.

              >> Hence, I would suggest that this is the case for "st", too.
              >> _Aistana-_ is therefore to be syllabified as _ai-stana_.
              >
              > ...and _Hrísto_ as _Hrí-sto_. This would also explain the syncope which
              > must have given the form _aistana_ rather than *_aiastana_.

              Yes, thank you.

              > Alternatively, one can suggest that in _aistana_ that _ai_ is not a
              > diphthong, but rather two vowels on the model of _oïkta_ in Narqelion
              > (see Christopher Gilson's article in VT40). The only problem with this
              > is that Tolkien did not mark it as such. Only too bad.

              Yes, that's of course possible but doesn't seem likely.

              > In spite of the above criticism, I think this is very much possible
              > theoretically and even not unlikely (in fact, I implicitly suggested
              > this in my latest post ('Or are we dealing with a special status of the
              > _st_ group [...]?)), and can be reconciled with the explanation I have
              > been propounding. One can then ascribe a special (near-monophonemic?)
              > status to the _st_ group and describe the lack of bisegmental initial
              > realization as a marked situation. This however raises several
              > problems, such as lack of a _sC_ in words from SC-initial roots
              > when that group is intervocalic (_Nurufantur_ rather than
              > *_Nuruspantur_.

              Well, you alluded to a special status of the "st" group. Sorry, I
              should have mentioned that.
              Your criticism doesn't seem to say anything really contrary to what I
              suggested though.

              Your last point (_Nurufantur_ vs *_Nuruspantur_) is a very strong one,
              I think. Maybe it can be solved by assuming that _Nurufantur_ is a
              later combination.

              David Kiltz
            • Rich Alderson
              ... It must be noted here that this is a matter of Modern Greek _spelling_, not of _phonetics_ or _phonology_. The spelling rule for foreign borrowings arose
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 20, 2003
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                On 19 Feb 2003, Pavel Iosad wrote _inter alia_:

                > There is also a solution in the lines of Modern Greek, where the /mp nt ng/
                > used to substitute voiced stops in loans, as in _mpar_ 'bar', but as opposed
                > to the /mp/ type, /mb/ cluster are semiotically suspect (just as the
                > traditional PIE reconstruction, which can be a strong argument *for*).

                It must be noted here that this is a matter of Modern Greek _spelling_, not of
                _phonetics_ or _phonology_. The spelling rule for foreign borrowings arose out
                of the historical development of clusters of nasal + voiceless stop to nasal +
                voiced stop, and the constraint against spirantization of original voiced stops
                following nasals, followed by the loss of homorganic nasal before voiced stops
                in certain positions. Following these changes, the spellings which once
                represented [mp] [nt] [Nk] represented first [mb] [nd] [Ng], and later, in most
                dialects, [b] [d] [g].

                In Cretan Greek, initial voiced stops became prenasalized, as a development
                from sandhi of the accusative case of the article (which ended in [n]); in
                other dialects, they became fricatives, as elsewhere. So the only way to spell
                a voiced stop in Greek is with the grapheme clusters <mp> <nt> <gg>.

                So Greek spelling has nothing to tell us about PQ phonology.

                Rich
              • Pavel Iosad
                Hello, ... No other here no doubt means not derived from _s_ , as the s-prefixion could turn into z-prefixion in a Slavic root like *_zdorv-_ hale,
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 21, 2003
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                  Hello,

                  David Kiltz wrote:

                  > They are two things. Yes, "s" also has a special status in I.-E.
                  > because it is the only spirant or fricative (next to the laryngeals).
                  > That is not the relevant point here though, I think. No other
                  > fricative serves the same function in later I.-E. languages
                  > (e.g. ph, th, kh).

                  'No other' here no doubt means 'not derived from _s_', as the
                  s-prefixion could turn into z-prefixion in a Slavic root like *_zdorv-_
                  'hale, healthy'.

                  > It is also noteworthy that "s" is not a homorganic fricative to
                  > any other sound in I.-E. Its "intervening" function can hardly be
                  > "just" explained by the fact that it is a fricative. Ultimately, the
                  > reason will be phonetic (i.e. biology).

                  Just as a matter of niggling, I'd rather say the two factors would be
                  intertwined, assisting each other.

                  [...]

                  > <here follows an account on certain behaviours of consonant
                  > clusters. I agree with the phenomena but don't see how that
                  > changes anything>.

                  Well, by this I wanted to demonstrate that the status of 's' can be
                  ambiguous, and that when building a sonority/consonanticity hierarchy,
                  one should exercise caution when assigning 's' a sonority level lower
                  than that of the occlusives.

                  > Just for interest: Sino-Tibetan seems to exhibit similar
                  > behaviour (as PIE in respect to "s").

                  ObOT: Could a pro-Nostratic case be made out of this?

                  [Let's not do so here! CFH]

                  [...]

                  > > the phonetic rules do require that a consonant cluster where the
                  > > first element is more consonantic than the first one be tautosyllabic
                  >
                  > Where the first element is more consonantic than the first one. There
                  > must be a typo here.

                  Sure there is. This should read '...than the second one'.

                  [...]
                  > > With this confer Quenya _alcar_ 'glory' from AKLA-R, cognate with
                  > > Noldorin/Sindarin _aglar_ (V:348). The very point here is that the
                  > > sequences, being of the 1 + 3 or 1 + 4 types (in David's notation),
                  > > require to be regarded as parts of one syllable. But the reversal
                  > > argues to support the point made in IX:417-8, that Quenya does
                  > > not tolerate onsets of more than segment [...] even if they
                  > > comply with the consonanticity/sonority hierarchy rules.
                  >
                  > I don't follow the argument. _AKLAR_ is _ak-lar_. The metathesis
                  > provides a softer syllable ending (l) and the highest possible degree
                  > of consonanticity for the syllable onset (k).

                  I have been under the impression that you suggested that _st_ as an
                  internal syllable onset is permissible because _s_ is more consonantic
                  than _t_. Unless we single out _st_ specifically (or _sC_), this would
                  imply (to me) that the only reason for a syllabification of the CV+stV-
                  kind can come about if we assume that all groups where the first element
                  is more consonantic than the second one require that the syllable
                  boundary be shifted to include both consonants in one syllable. Such a
                  state of affairs is only natural (it's biology, as you rightly note).
                  However, it appears that in Quenya, the limitation on syllable onsets
                  forces that the sound-structure of a word should be changed so as to
                  preclude the possibility of violating it (the limitation)

                  > Why would you syllabify AKLAR as _a-klar_ ? Maybe I didn't understand
                  > correctly.

                  Because if we strip the word of Quenya phonotactics, such a
                  syllabification is only natural.

                  The singling out of _st_ would seem unlikely - there's nothing so
                  special about them in comparison with the other sonority-raising
                  clusters except the fact that it contains _s_ (after all, I'd rather
                  expect that it would be sequences like _kl_ which acted as
                  tautosyllabic, rather than _sC_; cf. Latin).

                  > <snip>
                  > > There is no compelling need to suggest initial /MB ND ÑG/ are single
                  > > phonemes in PQ.
                  > > <snip>
                  >
                  > MB, ND, ÑG, (ÑGw) are described as the corresponding nasals to
                  > parmatéma, tincotéma, calmatéma, and quessetéma. I think they
                  > are to be understood as monophonemic.

                  We're speaking about PQ here, not Quenya (one should also point out that
                  in the tengwar _t_ : _nt_ == _d_ : _nd_; is that then proof of _nt_ being
                  monophonemic as well?)

                  > The African example is not compelling.
                  > While the lack of initial clusters in those languages points to the
                  > fact that MB etc. aren't as well, in those languages, the reverse is
                  > not necessarily true. Just because PQ has some initial clusters, MB
                  > etc. don't have to be too.

                  That is true. I am however yet to see an argument that MB and sundry ARE
                  monophonemic in PQ.

                  > I don't understand the point about Modern Greek. "mp" etc. are only
                  > graphical for [b]. This is a question of the writing system.

                  I stand corrected.

                  > I don't know what traditional PIE recontruction you refer to.
                  > Glottalic vs non- glottalic ? It can be a strong argument for what ?

                  The t - d - dh. That'd be pegged as 'non-glottalic' I think.

                  What I wanted to say is that a T - D - ND system is semiotically and
                  typologically suspect. However, if we substitute nasalisation for
                  aspiration, we get the IE reconstruction. Certainly Tolkien knew (and
                  probably liked) quite a bit about it, and could implement a similar
                  system here.

                  > In _hiruvalye_ the a is short. Hence it is to be syllabified
                  > _hi-ru-val-ye_. That's quite regular. l+y are biphonematic here and
                  > hence we have a long syllable. I fail to see a problem here.

                  So are you suggesting that the syllable boundary shifts to immediately
                  after a vowel only if the vowel is long?

                  [...]
                  > Your criticism doesn't seem to say anything really contrary to what I
                  > suggested though.

                  Well, anyway it's not that I reject your suggestions. You might after
                  all be right (that is not unlikely, in my opinion)

                  > Your last point (_Nurufantur_ vs *_Nuruspantur_) is a very strong
                  > one, I think. Maybe it can be solved by assuming that _Nurufantur_ is
                  > a later combination.

                  We surely can. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Quenya words
                  derived from SK/SP/ST-initial roots with some kind of sundokarme. In the
                  Etymologies, there's only _terhat_ (s.v. SKAT-), but that doesn't afford
                  any help.

                  Pavel
                  --
                  Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

                  Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
                  --Scottish proverb
                • David Kiltz
                  Zdorovo, ... Two things: I was actually referring to the role of s (and its allophone z ) as a cluster splitter. Not to the s-mobile. As for the Slavic,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 22, 2003
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                    Zdorovo,

                    Pavel Iosad wrote:

                    > David Kiltz wrote:
                    >
                    >> They are two things. Yes, "s" also has a special status in I.-E.
                    >> because it is the only spirant or fricative (next to the laryngeals).
                    >> That is not the relevant point here though, I think. No other
                    >> fricative serves the same function in later I.-E. languages
                    >> (e.g. ph, th, kh).
                    >
                    > 'No other' here no doubt means 'not derived from _s_', as the
                    > s-prefixion could turn into z-prefixion in a Slavic root like *_zdorv-_
                    > 'hale, healthy'.

                    Two things: I was actually referring to the role of "s" (and its
                    allophone "z") as a cluster splitter. Not to the s-mobile.
                    As for the Slavic, that surely is Proto-Slavic _*sudorvu (where u ==
                    "tverdyj znak", i.e. an overshort "u"). After the first short "u"
                    dropped, the "s" was progressively assimilated in voice. But that's
                    regular morphology (PIE *som-). I don't know whether you view the
                    s-mobile in PIE as such a prefix.

                    Surely allophonic "zd-" can be included but it doesn't seem to figure
                    in Elvish.

                    >> It is also noteworthy that "s" is not a homorganic fricative to
                    >> any other sound in I.-E. Its "intervening" function can hardly be
                    >> "just" explained by the fact that it is a fricative. Ultimately, the
                    >> reason will be phonetic (i.e. biology).
                    >
                    > Just as a matter of niggling, I'd rather say the two factors would be
                    > intertwined, assisting each other.

                    Yeah. So, "not just".

                    >> <here follows an account on certain behaviours of consonant
                    >> clusters. I agree with the phenomena but don't see how that
                    >> changes anything>.
                    >
                    > Well, by this I wanted to demonstrate that the status of 's' can be
                    > ambiguous, and that when building a sonority/consonanticity hierarchy,
                    > one should exercise caution when assigning 's' a sonority level lower
                    > than that of the occlusives.

                    I don't see how that is ambiguous. Do you think you can make a case for
                    "s" having lower sonority ?

                    <snip>
                    >>> With this confer Quenya _alcar_ 'glory' from AKLA-R, cognate with
                    >>> Noldorin/Sindarin _aglar_ (V:348). The very point here is that the
                    >>> sequences, being of the 1 + 3 or 1 + 4 types (in David's notation),
                    >>> require to be regarded as parts of one syllable. But the reversal
                    >>> argues to support the point made in IX:417-8, that Quenya does
                    >>> not tolerate onsets of more than segment [...] even if they
                    >>> comply with the consonanticity/sonority hierarchy rules.
                    >>
                    >> I don't follow the argument. _AKLAR_ is _ak-lar_. The metathesis
                    >> provides a softer syllable ending (l) and the highest possible degree
                    >> of consonanticity for the syllable onset (k).
                    >
                    > I have been under the impression that you suggested that _st_ as an
                    > internal syllable onset is permissible because _s_ is more consonantic
                    > than _t_. Unless we single out _st_ specifically (or _sC_), this would
                    > imply (to me) that the only reason for a syllabification of the CV+stV-
                    > kind can come about if we assume that all groups where the first
                    > element
                    > is more consonantic than the second one require that the syllable
                    > boundary be shifted to include both consonants in one syllable. Such a
                    > state of affairs is only natural (it's biology, as you rightly note).
                    > However, it appears that in Quenya, the limitation on syllable onsets
                    > forces that the sound-structure of a word should be changed so as to
                    > preclude the possibility of violating it (the limitation)

                    I understand now. No, I don't think "s" is more consonantic than "t".
                    Rather my argument is that the hierarchy can be "violated" by groups of
                    the kind "sC-". Or, in other terms, that "s", for some reason, does not
                    violate the rule. It is sort of a "moot" consonant. That's what the
                    examples from PIE where meant to illustrate. I would posit such a
                    behaviour for PQ as well.

                    >> Why would you syllabify AKLAR as _a-klar_ ? Maybe I didn't understand
                    >> correctly.
                    >
                    > Because if we strip the word of Quenya phonotactics, such a
                    > syllabification is only natural.
                    >
                    > The singling out of _st_ would seem unlikely - there's nothing so
                    > special about them in comparison with the other sonority-raising
                    > clusters except the fact that it contains _s_ (after all, I'd rather
                    > expect that it would be sequences like _kl_ which acted as
                    > tautosyllabic, rather than _sC_; cf. Latin).

                    Okay, yet Quenya seems to try to avoid a cluster onset CR- (as it does
                    in anlaut).

                    I do maintain, however, that sC- *is* a special case. We do not have a
                    **_aitsana_. Also, there is no case of s+t > t+s that I'm aware of.
                    Note that the case of _máryat_ is still special because _-rya_ is a
                    morpheme.

                    >>> There is no compelling need to suggest initial /MB ND ÑG/ are single
                    >>> phonemes in PQ.
                    >>> <snip>
                    >>
                    >> MB, ND, ÑG, (ÑGw) are described as the corresponding nasals to
                    >> parmatéma, tincotéma, calmatéma, and quessetéma. I think they
                    >> are to be understood as monophonemic.
                    >
                    > We're speaking about PQ here, not Quenya (one should also point out
                    > that
                    > in the tengwar _t_ : _nt_ ==== _d_ : _nd_; is that then proof of _nt_
                    > being
                    > monophonemic as well?)

                    No, and my notation was wrong. What I meant was M, N, Ñ, Ñw.

                    >> The African example is not compelling.
                    >> While the lack of initial clusters in those languages points to the
                    >> fact that MB etc. aren't as well, in those languages, the reverse is
                    >> not necessarily true. Just because PQ has some initial clusters, MB
                    >> etc. don't have to be too.
                    >
                    > That is true. I am however yet to see an argument that MB and sundry
                    > ARE monophonemic in PQ.

                    Okay. Nevertheless, pre-nasalized stops are a breed of their own. Their
                    behaviour in PQ would certainly merit a separate investigation.

                    >> I don't know what traditional PIE recontruction you refer to.
                    >> Glottalic vs non- glottalic ? It can be a strong argument for what ?
                    >
                    > The t - d - dh. That'd be pegged as 'non-glottalic' I think.
                    >
                    > What I wanted to say is that a T - D - ND system is semiotically and
                    > typologically suspect. However, if we substitute nasalisation for
                    > aspiration, we get the IE reconstruction. Certainly Tolkien knew (and
                    > probably liked) quite a bit about it, and could implement a similar
                    > system here.

                    Well, I don't know about semiotically. Tolkien's PE (and PQ) phonology
                    largely differs from PIE. It is more similar to Proto Finno-Ugric I'd
                    say. I cannot say whether Tolkien "liked" the traditional
                    reconstruction in terms of lámatyáve. Any clues to suggest either way?
                    Be that as it may, let it just be said that the traditional
                    reconstruction of the PIE consonant system is also typologically
                    problematic. Also, DH doesn't figure in Elvish.

                    >> In _hiruvalye_ the a is short. Hence it is to be syllabified
                    >> _hi-ru-val-ye_. That's quite regular. l+y are biphonematic here and
                    >> hence we have a long syllable. I fail to see a problem here.
                    >
                    > So are you suggesting that the syllable boundary shifts to immediately
                    > after a vowel only if the vowel is long?

                    Exactly.

                    >> Your last point (_Nurufantur_ vs *_Nuruspantur_) is a very strong
                    >> one, I think. Maybe it can be solved by assuming that _Nurufantur_ is
                    >> a later combination.
                    >
                    > We surely can. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Quenya words
                    > derived from SK/SP/ST-initial roots with some kind of sundokarme. In
                    > the Etymologies, there's only _terhat_ (s.v. SKAT-), but that doesn't
                    > afford any help.

                    Yes, all examples that show retaining of sC- are, unfortunately,
                    Sindarin. Having looked through The Etymologies et al. I do agree
                    though that the assumption of later formation looks increasingly likely.

                    [Not _all_ examples -- cf. Q. _estel_ 'hope' < STEL 'remain firm'
                    (XI:318) and Q. _sandastan_ 'shield-barrier' < _stama-_ 'bar, exclude'
                    (UT:282 n.16). There are probably other Q. examples besides these.
                    -- PHW.]

                    David Kiltz
                  • David Kiltz
                    ... I was referring to The Etymologies. But your examples are wonderful, I didn t find them then. So _st_ would be retained. David Kiltz [As would _sk_, on the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 25, 2003
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                      PHW wrote:

                      > [Not _all_ examples -- cf. Q. _estel_ 'hope' < STEL 'remain firm'
                      > (XI:318) and Q. _sandastan_ 'shield-barrier' < _stama-_ 'bar, exclude'
                      > (UT:282 n.16). There are probably other Q. examples besides these.

                      I was referring to The Etymologies. But your examples are wonderful, I
                      didn't find them then.
                      So _st_ would be retained.

                      David Kiltz

                      [As would _sk_, on the basis of _askante_ 'sunder-broke' (IX:310),
                      which evidently derives from SKAT- 'break asunder' (V:386).
                      -- Patrick Wynne]
                    • Ales Bican
                      ... **Er, did I miss something? As far as I know neither the perfect of _lelya-_ (did you mean _auta-_?) nor the present tense of _lanta-_ (I suppose you mean
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 2, 2003
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                        Pavel Iosad wrote:

                        > Ales Bican wrote:
                        >
                        > >**First of all, I think there is no published writing of Tolkien's
                        > >where he would state Quenya does not permit, to simplify it, long
                        > >vowels before consonant clusters. Or course, I may be wrong, so
                        > >correct me.
                        >
                        > Indeed you are correct. Nevertheless the lack of vowel lengthening in
                        > the perfect of _lelya-_, which exhibits nasal infixion, or in the
                        > present tense of verbs like _lanta_- shows that this shortening in
                        > closed syllables is regularly forced by the phonotactics.

                        **Er, did I miss something? As far as I know neither the perfect of
                        _lelya-_ (did you mean _auta-_?) nor the present tense of _lanta-_
                        (I suppose you mean the continuous form as opposed to the aorist)
                        is attested -- or am I wrong? What do you mean?

                        > It would nicely be described by a generative-style phonology, where the
                        > morphological module would give a form like _lántar_, and the 'phonology
                        > proper' module would then give the actual output _lantar_).

                        **I see: you mean that _lantar_ in Namárie is the present tense form?
                        This is possible, though I do not think so. (However, I agree that it
                        might have be an instance of the present tense in the stage of
                        Q(u)enya when the aorist was a past tense with the perfective
                        aspect.)

                        Nevertheless, there is a form which may show that the stem-vowel
                        is not shortened if preceded by _nt_: it is the preterite _lantie_
                        "fell" (be it either the past tense or perfect; LR:56).

                        > > [_aista-_ 'to dread' (V:358) -- PHW]
                        >
                        > Also _aistana_ 'blessed' in AM, and _aista-_ in _Alcar i Ataren_.

                        **This is what I meant because this occurence of _aista-_ is compatible
                        with _onye_ and _olye_ I mentioned. Anyway, since Helge Fauskanger
                        published his wordlists (for which I think we should be very grateful,
                        because it helps the scholarship), I wonder whether it is necessary
                        to give always pages for each and every single word.

                        [It is on this list, at least for words not cited from such well-known contexts
                        as Galadriel's Lament, etc. CFH]

                        > This may have to do with etymology, since *_aistana_, the editors inform
                        > us, can be connected with an old base like GAYA(S)- (VT43:38), which
                        > gives a formation like _*(g)aiastanâ_. Now the syncope of the second _a_
                        > is a bit hard to explain, it being in a long syllable.

                        **I do not think this was the form, because the syncope would not only
                        be hard to explain but probably even impossible. I think _aista-_ was
                        derived from *_(g)ais-tâ_, as the primitive form _gais-_ under the
                        entry GÁYAS- in Etym suggests.

                        > >And the same can be applied to other Cy combinations:
                        >
                        > This is true, and in fact, can be used as an argument for my
                        > interpretation. If we consider the _my_ palatalized (which we apparently
                        > agree upon), it does mean that palatalization is a phonemically relevant
                        > feature.

                        **I am not sure if we mean the same thing, so I will specify it:
                        personally, I think _my_ in _lamya_ does not stand for a single
                        sound (phoneme) but a sequence of two sounds (phonemes), the latter
                        being [j]. If the _m_ is palatalized I cannot say, but if it is,
                        then it is palatalized syntagmatically, that is to say, the
                        palatalization is caused by the following [j]. In my opinion,
                        _my_ might be either [mj] or [m'j] phonetically, but it is /mj/
                        phonologically.

                        > > it is hard to say whether _ry_ in
                        > >_máryat_ stands for [R] (palatal _r_, I will use capitals for palatals)
                        > > or [r'] or [rj] (resp. [r'j]).
                        >
                        > In the official IPA table (cf., for instance,
                        > http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/fullchart.html; this one is quite in
                        > accord with the latest version of the IPA handbook I have access to),
                        > palatal taps/flaps or trills are not shaded (which means the
                        > articulation is considered possible), but do not have a symbol assigned,
                        > which means that no described languages has a phonemic sound of those
                        > types.

                        **Yes, I am aware of the fact it is not shaded, but I do think that if
                        there is no sign for it means it does not exist in described languages.
                        There is no sign for Czech _r-hacek_, either.

                        > >With this are connected what I would call primary and secondary Cy
                        > >combinations. Primary Cy combinations are those that existed from
                        > >Primitive Quendian (resp. Common Eldarin). They occur exclusively
                        > >word-initially.
                        >
                        > That isn't as obvious. Apparently you mean that certain word-initial
                        > consonants were palatalized, but then your use of 'combinations' is
                        > somewhat misleading.

                        **I realize I did not make myself clear, which leads to confusion.
                        Sorry. By the Cy combination I meant the way Tolkien transribed
                        his languages -- I meant graphemes but not phonemes. Such a Cy
                        combination may stand for different things on the phonological level.
                        For instance, I think the Cy combination in _tyálie_ stands for /T/
                        (sc. a voiceless palatal stop), which the Cy combination in, say,
                        _lamya_ stands for /mj/.

                        Now by the primary Cy combinations I meant cases where it stood
                        for one phoneme; the secondary ones stood for sequences of C + /j/.

                        > Combinations of C+_j_ were clearly present on the
                        > CE level, since medial combinations of this kind consistently turn out
                        > as tyelpetéma-consonants in Quenya, but also cause i-affection in
                        > Sindarin.

                        **Yes, this is what I mean by the secondary Cy combinations: they
                        arose from the contact of two mophemes in derivational processes
                        of the Elvish language.

                        > > What we do not
                        > > know is whether e.g. _n + y_ in _vanya_ produced [N] or [n'j]/[nj].
                        >
                        > Indeed. That is what the whole problem hinges on, anyway.

                        **Definitely!

                        > > I think I mentioned it in earlier posts: (a) in VT42:27 Tolkien
                        > > mentioned that "_atatya_ remained [unreduced] because the second _a_
                        > > was not syncopated, being in a long syllable";

                        [...]

                        > Syncope, for instance, is driven phonetically. From a phonological (here
                        > phonotactical) point of view, there is nothing inherently wrong with
                        > three consecutive syllables sharing a similar nucleus, phonetics
                        > however, aiming at easing of articulation, is the driving force behind
                        > the simplification of the 'redundant' elements. Since this is a phonetic
                        > rather than a phonological phenomenon, we should consider the _ty_ as a
                        > phonetic unit. According to my suggestion, _ty_ is *phonetically*
                        > bimoraic, and therefore the second syllable of _atatya_ is indeed
                        > closed.

                        **While I agree with this, I still ask why we have _onye_, _olye_ but
                        _máryat_.

                        > (As a rather important aside, I have quite forgotten to explain how, in
                        > my theory, the syllable boundary splits the [t_j] and the [j] if they
                        > are permissible word-initially. It is possible to suggest that
                        > bisegmental sequences are forbidden on both the phonetical and the
                        > phonological levels, so word-initially the _ty_'s and sundry could be
                        > pronounced without the glide owing to these constraints, but with it
                        > intervocalically. In post-pausal position, as after the nasals, it would
                        > of course be also pronounced in a single segment, but this does not
                        > create a lot of problems with regard to syllable division, since the
                        > preceding syllable would be closed anyway)

                        **Although this sounds likely and might be true, especially what regards
                        the _nCy_ sequences, I do not dare to combine all Cy combinations --
                        I mean I am not quite convinced that, say, _ty_ in _tyálie_ in the same
                        thing as _ty_ in _atatya_. At least _ny_ in _nyello_ is hardly the same
                        thing _ny_ in _enyalie_ (Cirion's Oath) -- I would say.

                        > >Another thing must also be mentioned. Quenya does not like sequences
                        > >of consonants much and if there is a sequence, it does not consist
                        > >of more than two members. In other words, we do not see combinations
                        > >of three and more consonants in Quenya. Nevertheless, we see
                        > >combinations CCy: _nty_, _ndy_, _rty_ (_lty_ not attested), _sty_,
                        > >and _hty_.
                        >
                        > Which further suggests that they are phonologically single, as Ales
                        > notes.

                        **Only if we assume that Quenya does not allow sequences of three
                        consonantal phonemes.

                        [...]

                        > After all, it must be noted that the mere fact of the phonologically
                        > irregular stress in _hiruvalye_ points that the form is marked,
                        > otherwise its formation would be blocked by a rule higher on the
                        > hierarchy (i. e. more marked)

                        **As David Kiltz already noted, the stress is not irregular if _ly_
                        here stands for /lj/, which I think is the case as is also suggested
                        by _olye_. But what about _máryat_?

                        > [...]
                        > >**In other words, an initial _d_ is not found (though _Aldudénie_ might
                        > >be an example of this under certain assumptions), which does not
                        > >necessarily mean it is forbidden.
                        >
                        > But cf. L[R]:1094-5,

                        **Where? Ok, just kidding, I know what you mean, because I am
                        familiar with the phrase. Even if I did not, I am lucky to have the
                        same edition of LotR, though other people may not be as lucky.

                        [It is not a question of "luck"; the one-volume edition is (for now) the most
                        authoritative, and is therefore the one that all _scholars_ should reference. CFH]

                        > where the phrase definitely says that the /b g gw/
                        > were only met in conjunction with the nasals, and /d/, from the turn of
                        > the phrase, is only met after /n l r/.

                        **You are right.

                        > (There's also Christopher's
                        > apparent slip in UT, where he gives the name of a Númenórean city as
                        > _Almaida_, it should apparently be #_Almalda_)

                        **Can you tell me where, I did not find in the index? And please, avoid
                        giving page numbers, as I may not be so lucky this time.

                        [It's at UT:7; Christopher Tolkien does note there that the name is hard to read.
                        Ales, you know the policy of this list, and the reasons for it. You don't have to like
                        it, or agree with it, but you do have to follow it if you want to participate in this
                        forum. I also won't have you discouraging others from acting in a scholarly
                        manner. CFH]

                        > > One would be inclined to say that
                        > > a medial _ky_ is not permitted if _Erukyerme_ (UT) and _Ekyanáro_
                        > > (VT41:14) were not attested.
                        >
                        > By the way, if you asked me, I'd give these as probable candidates for
                        > palatal rather than palatalized stops;

                        **If the _ky_ combination stands here for one phoneme, then I think
                        it is a voiceless palato-velar stop, the same sound that is
                        reconstructed for Indo-European (if I am not mistaken). However, if
                        the _ky_ stands for two phonemes, it is most likely /k/ + /j/.
                        _Erukyerme_ might be an example of the former, _Ekyanáro_ of the
                        latter.

                        > the articulatory mecanism is the
                        > same as behind the palatal status of _hy_, for which see my original
                        > post. If we suggest that _ty_ is palatal, then these are just
                        > alternative orthographies, if it is palatalized, Quenya falls into the
                        > Macedonian category. A third possibility is that _ky_ is an alternative
                        > orthography for palatalized _ty_, but this is unlikely.

                        **As I suggested, I still need more phonetic training, but as far as I
                        undertand _ky_ as a palato-velar and _ty_ as a palatal (palato-dental)
                        are different sounds.

                        [_tyelpetéma_ palatal or palatalized:]

                        > The distinction between 'palatal' and 'palatalized' can be blurry,
                        > especially for one who isn't deep into synchronic phonology. Tolkien
                        > surely knew about it, but it wasn't his primary area of interest (which
                        > is probably why we seldom get any coherent synchronic picture of
                        > Tolkien's invented languages - it doesn't possess an independent value
                        > for Tolkien, and is justified by writing poetry, cf. the passage in 'The
                        > Secret Vice'). If _ty_ were palatal, it is difficult to justify why
                        > Tolkien described it as 'similar to English _t_ in _tune_' (L:1088)',
                        > since the sound is not palatal (but rather, in British speech,
                        > pronounced with a glide!).

                        **That is not surprising for me at all. The book was written for English
                        readers, Tolkien could not suppose that they would know other
                        languages than English. Neither of the most commonly taught languages
                        (i.e. French, Spanish, German) have a palatal _t_. In fact, which
                        European languages besides Czech, Slovak and Hungarian have it?
                        The example of 'tune' was probably the one Tolkien could use (not
                        to mention that he wrote it was "probably similar", which can mean
                        anything).

                        > Also he might have included the Spanish ñ as
                        > a description of NY in the Appendix (though this is of no value as an
                        > argument)

                        **Am I blind or Tolkien did not give any hint how NY should be
                        pronounced? I have not realized it until now. As a matter of fact,
                        he did not mention LY and RY, either. If these combinations stands
                        for palatal _l_ and _r_ respectively, why was it not mentioned?

                        > > It is also supposed to have existed in old
                        > > Czech (as a reflex of _rj_), but this does not mean anything.
                        >
                        > That is rather off-topic, but that is somewhat strained to me. As I
                        > understand, the transition from palatalized [r] to the Czech r-haczek
                        > (coarticulated [r] and [Z] as in 'pleasure') only implies the addition
                        > of the fricative character and removal of the flap, and does not
                        > necessarily imply a back-and-forth place of articulation shift.

                        **To quote a "classic": "Many foreigners perceive Czech _r-hacek_,
                        an absolutely homogeneous sound, as the sound sequences _rZ_.
                        [...] In reality _r-hacek_ is only an _r_ with less amplitude in
                        vibration of the tip of the tongue, so that a frictionlike noise
                        resembling an _Z_ is audible between the trills of the _r_."
                        (Trubetzkoy, _Principles of Phonology_).

                        > >> I would suggest that _ly_, being palatalized,
                        >
                        > >**I think it is a palatal, being distinct to a palatalized _l_, which
                        > >occured between _e, i_ and a consonant, cf. App. E s.v. L: "[_l_] was,
                        > >however, to some degree 'palatalized' between _e, i_ and a consonant,
                        > >or finally after _e, i_".
                        >
                        > The part about 'to some degree' worries me a lot. I don't know much
                        > about degrees of palatalization in European languages (since the Russian
                        > non-palatalized [l] is heavily velarized, which interferes a lot), but
                        > it seems possible that the palatalization distinction could possess
                        > three grades.

                        **At any rate, this to-some-degree-palatalized _l_ must still be
                        phonologically regarded as /l/, because this palatalization is
                        a syntagmatic assimilation of [l] to immediate _e, i_. The palatal
                        _l_, if existing in the language, is not depended on the phonetic
                        environment.

                        > >> Now if _ry_ is a single consonant (it apparently is *phonologically*),
                        >
                        > >**I do not think it is obvious.
                        >
                        > I never said it was obvious. This situation is difficult to resolve
                        > (just as in natural languages), since not one of the two tests
                        > applicable to Quenya (whether the consonant makes a syllable closed;
                        > whether it can be word/syllable-initial) is not applicable to the sound
                        > in question - the first test is what we are discussing, the second one
                        > is inapplicable in case of word-initial [ry] because there's just no
                        > possible etymology for an initial [ry] (unless a RY-root is found), in
                        > case of internal syllable-initial because the first element of a cluster
                        > is either a nasal or a spirant fricative, both of which tend to
                        > assimilate with [r] and blur the distinctions.

                        **Let me know that any LY-root is not found, either. _lyenna_
                        cannot, in my opinion, be regarded as a "normal" form. It is
                        noteworthy that DY, the most likely candidate for the origin of
                        a word-initial _ly_, did not become _ly_ (as it did word-medially)
                        but instead it lost its occusive component and retained its palatal
                        one, becoming _y_. This can suggest that _ly_ is not monophonematic.
                        On the other hand, the "d" component is often lost, as _Quendya_
                        > _Quenya_ shows.


                        Ales Bican

                        --
                        kurvannapi vyalíkáni yah. priyah. priya eva sah.
                        anekadós.adus.t.ó 'pi káyah. kasya na vallabhah.
                      • Ales Bican
                        ... **I may not understand you and perhaps the confusion was caused by my failure to explain precisely what I meant the by Cy combinations. At any rate I would
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 2, 2003
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                          David Kiltz wrote:

                          > [...]As phonetics tell us, a syllable ideally starts with a higher degree
                          > of
                          > consonanticity followed by a sound with a lower value. A somewhat
                          > simplified consonanticity hierarchy may look like this: Occlusives >
                          > Spirants (Sibilants, s having a special status) > Nasals > L,R >
                          > "half-vowels". We may call these sounds then class 1,2,3,4, and 5.
                          > Word-initially Quenya seems to allow for the following combinations:
                          > 1 + 5 (cf. _tyulusse, tyálie_),
                          > 2 + 5 (cf. _hyarin_ < SWAR-. As "h" probably represents [ç] here, it
                          > should be treated as a spirant which, historically, it certainly is.),
                          > 3 + 5 (cf. _nyello_),
                          > 4 + 5 (doubtful, _lyenna_ ?).
                          > -Note: For completness a class 6 (vowels) belongs here. It has been
                          > left out for obvious reasons. Any class + 6 would work.-

                          **I may not understand you and perhaps the confusion was caused by
                          my failure to explain precisely what I meant the by Cy combinations.
                          At any rate I would not call what you describe here combinations
                          (except for any class + 6, which are combinations of C + V). Although
                          we see here two graphemes (_ty_, _hy_, _ny_; _ly_ is doubtful), I am
                          convinced these _graphemic_ combinations stand for single phonemes.
                          So for instance, the case of _tyálie_ is not, in my view, an instance
                          of 1 + 5 (i.e. occlusive plus semivowel _y_), but just 1 (+ 6, the vowel
                          _á_), as palatals would belong to the same class with occlusives.

                          > Adding to this, PQ allows for the following additional combinations: s
                          > + 1, 3, 4, 5. (Abundant examples can be found in V, "The Etymologies".

                          **I think the situation in PQ was not much different. What is
                          transcribed as Cy (on _sy_ see below) does not stand for two phonemes
                          but for just one, I think. Basically, PQ does not allow any other
                          phonemic combinations than sC if graphemic combinations Cy are
                          monophonematic (on nasal + stop see below).

                          > Of course, certain combinations within these classes do not occur, e.g.
                          > p+y. This is most probably due to euphonic reasons.

                          **While the reasons can certainly be euphonic on Tolkien's side,
                          I think the reason why there is nothing like _p+y_ is still because
                          the word-initial graphemic Cy combinations stand for one phoneme,
                          not a combination of phonemes.

                          PQ had three basic series of localization: labial, dental and velar.
                          The dental series was split into two related series: plain dentals
                          and palato-dentals. The velar series was split to three related
                          series: plain velars, palato-velars and labio-velars. Each series
                          had a voiceless occlusive, voiced occlusive, nasal and some of
                          them voiceless aspirated occlusives. So:

                          labials: P, B, M, Ph
                          plain dentals: T, D, N, Th
                          palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)
                          plain velars: K, G, Ñ, Kh
                          palato-velars: Ky, Gy, (Ñy not found), Khy
                          labio-velars: Kw, Gw, (Ñw, Khw not found)

                          The rest, i.e. S, 3, R, L, Y and W stood outside this system. Then
                          there are combinations nasal + voiced occlusive (such as _mb_)
                          which may be evaluated as monophonematic (if so, they are not
                          found in palato-dentals, sc. no _ndy_ word-initially) but it is
                          not certain. I will return to them.

                          This system was reduced in noninitial positions in the root
                          (syllable): for instance, while we see aspirates on the coda
                          of a PQ syllable (e.g. KHITH), we do not see there any palatals.

                          > Given the attested Quenya words, I will argue that Quenya in principle
                          > honours the biphonemic rule but may, under certain historical
                          > circumstances, allow for a different syllabification.
                          > Case 1) The obvious instance where e.g. _ty_ is primary and hence
                          > monophonemic. Cf. _intya-_.
                          > Case 2) _máryat_. In my view this is not a violation of the biphonemic
                          > rule but has to be syllabified as má (<ma3-) +ryat. The division is
                          > due to morphological reasons and is phonetically permissible since a
                          > syllable-initial cluster "ry" is in accord with the consonanticity
                          > hierarchy for syllable-onsets outlined above.

                          **As I have already noted, the _onye_ example does not seem to be
                          compatible with _máryat_. Something similar may be with _ohlon_:
                          why is it not *_óhlon_, _hl_ being a single phoneme which implies
                          from the fact it occurs word-initially?

                          > Now for the case of _aistana-_.
                          >
                          > In "The Etymologies" one can see that PQ (or PE) allowed for a wide
                          > range of s + C clusters initially.

                          [the excursus snipped]

                          > The special behaviour of "s" that can be seen e.g. in Indo-European
                          > also seems to feature in PQ (PE). As I argued in the case of _máryat_,
                          > Quenya seems to allow certain PQaic clusters at the onset of a syllable
                          > which it has otherwise simplified word-initially.
                          > Hence, I would suggest that this is the case for "st", too.
                          > _Aistana-_ is therefore to be syllabified as _ai-stana_.

                          **There may be another explanation of _aista-_. Although it was me
                          who mentioned the form _aista-_, I cannot remember any other example
                          of a diphthong before a consonant cluster. If it is an isolated
                          example, then it might be an exception.

                          As the entry in Etym suggest, the form _aista-_ was derived from was
                          _gais-_. Since the base does not appear to be verbal and there was a
                          need for a verbal derivative, the Elvish language did not have a lot
                          of possibilities than to suffix a verbalizer. While there are a number
                          of verbalizers, the formant _-ta_ was chosen. This suffixion caused
                          that now there was a diphthong (a two-moraic unit) before a consonant
                          cluster. I think it would have normally led to reduction (change) of
                          the diphthong to _e_ (as in _Melkor_ < *_Mailkó_ < _Mailikó_, Etym s.v.
                          MIL-IK), but this change would have confused the original base GAYAS
                          with a distinct base ES-, because the form would then have been *_esta-_
                          (_esta-_ "to name"). In order to preserve the relationship with the
                          base GAYAS, the change may not have happened. In case of _aistana_,
                          the relationship was perhaps more desired to be retained because of
                          the words such as _aire_.

                          As regards _Hrísto_, this is a doubtful example, because Tolkien
                          change it to _Hristo_ immediately.

                          * * *

                          Pavel Iosad then replied to David's letter mentioning:

                          > Now there is also the question of what to allow as initial PQ clusters.
                          > There is no compelling need to suggest initial /MB ND ÑG/ are single
                          > phonemes in PQ. The African languages where such consonants are viewed
                          > as single phonemes do not allow any other initial clusters, which is not
                          > the case in PQ.

                          David replied:

                          > MB, ND, ÑG, (ÑGw) are described as the corresponding nasals to
                          > parmatéma, tincotéma, calmatéma, and quessetéma. I think they are to be
                          > understood as monophonemic. The African example is not compelling.
                          > While the lack of initial clusters in those languages points to the
                          > fact that MB etc. aren't as well, in those languages, the reverse is
                          > not necessarily true. Just because PQ has some initial clusters, MB
                          > etc. don't have to be too.

                          **I think it is possible to evaluate MB, ND, NG, NGy and NGw (NDy
                          missing) as monophonematic, even though as David notes PQ had some
                          initial clusters. However, the first component in these clusters
                          (as far as I know) was always /s/. We have these: SK, SL, SM, SN,
                          SP, ST, SW and SY + SR from a non-Etym source. In other words,
                          S is always combined with voiceless (plain) occlusives P, T and K,
                          nasals M and N (SÑ not found), liquids L and R, and semivowels Y
                          and W. Since there does not seem to be other initial clusters
                          (GR, GL, DR being late PQ/Sindarin variations of R and L, see
                          WJ:411 and VT39:11), we could perhaps evaluate these combinations
                          as monophonematic.

                          Above I tried to describe the phonologic system of PQ. The system
                          was practically the same as the system of Eldarin at the Qenya
                          stage (Eldarin being an ancestor of Qenya, PE12:15). The most
                          significant difference was the presence of spirants in all series
                          of localization, i.e. something that is not found in PQ. The role
                          of spirants was taken up by aspirates. Another difference is that
                          the Eldarin system did not have palato-velar, it had only palato-
                          dental or just palatals.

                          Now all series of localization (q-, k-, c-, t- and p-like) had
                          several "degrees": voiceless explosive, voices explosives, voiceless
                          spirants, voiced spirants, nasal and the last "degree" was
                          _nasalized explosive_. This of course may mean that these nasalized
                          explosives were monophonematic in Eldarin, though there may represent
                          two sounds phonetically, because Tolkien apparently used a bow over
                          a graphemic combination if it stood for a single sound, which is
                          not the case of the nasalized explosives.

                          What was the situation in the Etym Quenya is not certain. Another
                          important thing to mention is that the nasalized stops behaved
                          variously: sometimes they were reduced to either plain nasals
                          (in Quenya, e.g. MB > M) or plain stops (in Sindarin, MB > B),
                          but sometimes the nasal became syllabic: e.g. MBARAT > Q _umbar_.
                          This rises a question whether stems like MBAR were dissyllabic
                          or monosyllabic. Phonetically according to the sonority scale
                          they should be dissyllabic. Phonologically, however, they seem
                          to be monosyllabic.

                          Now I am eager to hear your opinions, I am sure I overlooked
                          or misunderstood several things.


                          Ales Bican

                          ps. For more on the PQ bases and syllabic sonorants in PQ
                          see Helge Fauskanger's article _Primitive Elvish_

                          http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/primelv.htm

                          and David Salo's Elfling post _Qenya -> Quenya; vocalized
                          sonorants_ from Oct, 8th, 2000

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/3516

                          [Not to mention, Tolkien's own Qenya Phonology, in PE12. CFH]

                          --
                          kurvannapi vyalíkáni yah. priyah. priya eva sah.
                          anekadós.adus.t.ó 'pi káyah. kasya na vallabhah.
                        • David Kiltz
                          ... Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y. ... I beg to differ (v.s.). ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 3, 2003
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                            On Sonntag, März 2, 2003, at 09:34 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

                            > **I may not understand you and perhaps the confusion was caused by
                            > my failure to explain precisely what I meant the by Cy combinations.
                            > <...>). Although we see here two graphemes (_ty_, _hy_, _ny_; _ly_ is
                            > doubtful), I am convinced these _graphemic_ combinations stand for
                            > single phonemes.

                            Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
                            that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.

                            > Basically, PQ does not allow any other phonemic combinations than
                            > sC if graphemic combinations Cy are monophonematic (on nasal +
                            > stop see below).

                            I beg to differ (v.s.).

                            > I think the reason why there is nothing like _p+y_ is still because
                            > the word-initial graphemic Cy combinations stand for one phoneme,
                            > not a combination of phonemes.

                            I don't see the causality here. Even *if* the instances of Cy are
                            monophonemic, how would that preclude a combination _py_ (being also
                            monophonemic). Do you think a palatalized _p_ is a priori impossible ?
                            If it's not, the reason for its non-occurence is euphonic, either way.

                            **Ales gives the inventory of PQ, including:

                            > palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)

                            In my view there is no palato-dental series.

                            >> Case 2) _máryat_. In my view this is not a violation of the biphonemic
                            >> rule but has to be syllabified as má (<ma3-) +ryat. The division is
                            >> due to morphological reasons and is phonetically permissible since a
                            >> syllable-initial cluster "ry" is in accord with the consonanticity
                            >> hierarchy for syllable-onsets outlined above.
                            >
                            > **As I have already noted, the _onye_ example does not seem to be
                            > compatible with _máryat_. Something similar may be with _ohlon_:
                            > why is it not *_óhlon_, _hl_ being a single phoneme which implies
                            > from the fact it occurs word-initially?

                            Indeed, _onye_ and _ohlon_ seem to contradict what I said about
                            _máryat_. However, if we look very closely, the cases aren't exactly
                            the same. _Má_ is a full blown noun whereas _ó_ is a preposition.
                            _Ohlon_ is a new word. Also, inflected prepositions tend to be viewed
                            as one word as the developments of such inflections in e.g. Welsh and
                            Irish show. With _máryat_, the situation is different. Note that the
                            _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined with a derivational
                            element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.

                            >> As I argued in the case of _máryat_, Quenya seems to allow certain
                            >> PQaic clusters at the onset of a syllable which it has otherwise simplified
                            >> word-initially. Hence, I would suggest that this is the case for "st", too.
                            >> _Aistana-_ is therefore to be syllabified as _ai-stana_.

                            Ales notes _aista_ may be an exception and continues:

                            > As the entry in Etym suggest, the form _aista-_ was derived from was
                            > _gais-_. <...>, the formant _-ta_ was chosen. This suffixion caused
                            > that now there was a diphthong (a two-moraic unit) before a consonant
                            > cluster. I think it would have normally led to reduction (change) of
                            > the diphthong to _e_ (as in _Melkor_ < *_Mailkó_ < _Mailikó_, Etym s.v.
                            > MIL-IK), but this change would have confused the original base GAYAS
                            > with a distinct base ES-, because the form would then have been *_esta-_
                            > (_esta-_ "to name"). In order to preserve the relationship with the
                            > base GAYAS, the change may not have happened. In case of _aistana_,
                            > the relationship was perhaps more desired to be retained because of
                            > the words such as _aire_.

                            *Maybe* an irregular soundshape was retained. But that seems highly
                            unusual. In all instance of homophony that Tolkien notes, the words
                            fall out of use.

                            > As regards _Hrísto_, this is a doubtful example, because Tolkien
                            > change it to _Hristo_ immediately.

                            Which may be indicative and may not. The Greek _i_ is also short. (Note
                            that _hr_ here stands by all likelihood for two sounds, representing
                            Greek "chi+rho". If _hr_ was indeed monophonemic, why would it have
                            been chosen over simple _r_ or e.g. _kr_. Do you think that _hr_
                            represents another sound than it does normally in Quenya ?).

                            > **I think it is possible to evaluate MB, ND, NG, NGy and NGw (NDy
                            > missing) as monophonematic, <...>
                            > Another important thing to mention is that the nasalized stops behaved
                            > variously: sometimes they were reduced to either plain nasals
                            > (in Quenya, e.g. MB > M) or plain stops (in Sindarin, MB > B),
                            > but sometimes the nasal became syllabic: e.g. MBARAT > Q _umbar_.
                            > This r[a]ises a question whether stems like MBAR were dissyllabic
                            > or monosyllabic. Phonetically according to the sonority scale
                            > they should be dissyllabic. Phonologically, however, they seem
                            > to be monosyllabic.

                            I agree with you in your assessment of _MB_ etc. as monophonemic. Your
                            last sentence, however, I think is wrong. In my opinion, there is no
                            phonetic/phonological contradiction here. If _MBAR_ is indeed
                            monosyllabic it also is phonetically so. Because there is no scale
                            then. _MB_ has óne pitch, then. We are dealing with prenasalized stops
                            here, I'd say. _umbar_ may well not be a case of a syllabic _m_ but
                            actually *_ú-mbar_ "ill fate".

                            David Kiltz

                            (Unfortunately I'm unable to access two of the sources mentioned by
                            Ales an Carl: David Salo's post and PE 12 (as well as 11).
                          • Pavel Iosad
                            [PLEASE be sure to indicate clearly and accurately to whom you are responding in your posts! CFH] [David Kiltz wrote:] ... Well, yes. (I agree, anyway) Though
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 6, 2003
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                              [PLEASE be sure to indicate clearly and accurately to whom you are
                              responding in your posts! CFH]

                              [David Kiltz wrote:]

                              > Rather my argument is that the hierarchy can be "violated" by
                              > groups of the kind "sC-". Or, in other terms, that "s", for some
                              > reason, does not violate the rule. It is sort of a "moot" consonant
                              > That's what the examples from PIE where meant to illustrate. I would
                              > posit such a behaviour for PQ as well.

                              Well, yes. (I agree, anyway) Though one would still wonder what gives it
                              the special status, since 's' is less consonantic than the stops. In
                              PIE, that's apparently its status as the only fricative. I'd hazard a
                              guess that is also the case for PQ.

                              > Okay, yet Quenya seems to try to avoid a cluster onset CR-
                              > (as it does in anlaut).

                              Exactly. With st-, however, it avoids the thing in anlaut but not in
                              inlaut.

                              > I do maintain, however, that sC- *is* a special case. We do
                              > not have a **_aitsana_. Also, there is no case of s+t > t+s that I'm aware of.

                              Yes, though _sk_ > _ks_ is present (irregularly):

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/58
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/59

                              > > That is true. I am however yet to see an argument that MB and sundry
                              > > ARE monophonemic in PQ.
                              >
                              > Okay. Nevertheless, pre-nasalized stops are a breed of their own. Their
                              > behaviour in PQ would certainly merit a separate investigation.

                              Yes.

                              > Well, I don't know about semiotically.

                              [unmarked] - [marked by contrast 1] - [marked by contrast 1][marked by
                              contrast 2] (t-d-dh) is strange. A system like [unmarked] - [marked by
                              contrast 1] - [marked by contrast 2] (p-b-ph) is extremely widespread
                              and more concise (and caters for better transmision of distinctions).

                              > Tolkien's PE (and PQ) phonology
                              > largely differs from PIE. It is more similar to Proto Finno-Ugric I'd
                              > say. I cannot say whether Tolkien "liked" the traditional
                              > reconstruction in terms of lámatyáve. Any clues to suggest either way?

                              None. That's why I say it *can* be an argument.

                              > Be that as it may, let it just be said that the traditional
                              > reconstruction of the PIE consonant system is also typologically
                              > problematic. Also, DH doesn't figure in Elvish.

                              Substitute [+ nasalized] for [+aspirated] and you get it.

                              > > So are you suggesting that the syllable boundary shifts to immediately
                              > > after a vowel only if the vowel is long?
                              >
                              > Exactly.

                              OK. So are you suggesting that the mono- or biphonemic realization of
                              the _Cy_'s depends on whether the vowel before them is short or long?


                              Pavel
                              --
                              Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

                              Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
                              --Scottish proverb
                            • Pavel Iosad
                              Hello, ... I was referring to IX:56, where the forms _lendien_ and _nilendie_ occur, and they are to be compared with the first edition s _vánier_, as well
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                Hello,

                                Ales Bican wrote:

                                > **Er, did I miss something? As far as I know neither the perfect of
                                > _lelya-_ (did you mean _auta-_?)

                                I was referring to IX:56, where the forms _lendien_ and
                                _nilendie_ occur, and they are to be compared with the first edition's
                                _vánier_, as well with the facing page (IX:57), where the perfect of
                                #_tuv-_'find' consistently shows a long vowel (in both of the texts):
                                _túvien_.

                                > Nevertheless, there is a form which may show that the stem-vowel
                                > is not shortened if preceded by _nt_: it is the preterite _lantie_
                                > "fell" (be it either the past tense or perfect; LR:56).

                                _nt_ is straightforwardly a cluster, I think, there's not a lot of
                                problem with it.

                                > **I do not think this was the form, because the syncope would not only
                                > be hard to explain but probably even impossible. I think _aista-_ was
                                > derived from *_(g)ais-tâ_, as the primitive form _gais-_ under the
                                > entry GÁYAS- in Etym suggests.

                                This is also possible, of course.

                                > In my opinion, _my_ might be either [mj] or [m'j] phonetically,
                                > but it is /mj/ phonologically.

                                I agree.

                                > **Yes, I am aware of the fact it is not shaded, but I do think that if
                                > there is no sign for it means it does not exist in described
                                > languages.

                                Yes, but it means that it has been nowhere to date found as a phoneme.

                                > There is no sign for Czech _r-hacek_, either.

                                That'd be coarticulated [r] and [Z].

                                > **While I agree with this, I still ask why we have _onye_, _olye_ but
                                > _máryat_.

                                One explanation is because the long _á_ in _máryat_ is etymological (<
                                *_-A3_), but the _o_ in _onye_, _olye_ is etymologically short.

                                > **Although this sounds likely and might be true, especially what regards
                                > the _nCy_ sequences, I do not dare to combine all Cy combinations --
                                > [Ales suspects that the Cy combinations in anlaut and inlaut are not
                                > one and the same thing]

                                Well, yes, they would be pronounced differently (the difference being
                                the presence/absence of the glide).

                                > **Only if we assume that Quenya does not allow sequences of three
                                > consonantal phonemes.

                                Arguments against?

                                > **If the _ky_ combination stands [in _Erukyerme_ and _Ekyanáro_]
                                > for one phoneme, then I think
                                > it is a voiceless palato-velar stop, the same sound that is
                                > reconstructed for Indo-European (if I am not mistaken).

                                The difference between palato-velar and palatal is not so great, anyway
                                the two are not attested as distinctive anywhere.

                                > **As I suggested, I still need more phonetic training, but as far as I
                                > undertand _ky_ as a palato-velar and _ty_ as a palatal (palato-dental)
                                > are different sounds.

                                Vide supra. This is possible, but highly untypological.

                                > Neither of the most commonly taught languages
                                > (i.e. French, Spanish, German) have a palatal _t_. In fact, which
                                > European languages besides Czech, Slovak and Hungarian have it?

                                Latvian. Macedonian. Albanian. (note all of these are not only European,
                                but also Indo-European)

                                > The example of 'tune' was probably the one Tolkien could use (not
                                > to mention that he wrote it was "probably similar", which can mean
                                > anything).

                                Yes.

                                > **Am I blind or Tolkien did not give any hint how NY should be
                                > pronounced? I have not realized it until now. As a matter of fact,
                                > he did not mention LY and RY, either. If these combinations stands
                                > for palatal _l_ and _r_ respectively, why was it not mentioned?

                                _Argumenta ex nihilo_ are dangerous, so I'd answer 'Tolkien only knows'

                                > **At any rate, this to-some-degree-palatalized _l_ must still be
                                > phonologically regarded as /l/, because this palatalization is
                                > a syntagmatic assimilation of [l] to immediate _e, i_. The palatal
                                > _l_, if existing in the language, is not depended on the phonetic
                                > environment.

                                Yes

                                > **Let me know that any LY-root is not found, either.[...]
                                > This can suggest that _ly_ is not monophonematic.

                                Alternatively, this may suggest a prohibition of initial palatal[ized]
                                liquids (since there's no _ry_)

                                > On the other hand, the "d" component is often lost, as _Quendya_
                                > > _Quenya_ shows.

                                Are there examples of this in _The Etymologies_? Remember that the
                                example is from Q&E.

                                Pavel
                                --
                                Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@m...

                                Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
                                --Scottish proverb
                              • David Kiltz
                                ... Note however (Pomp. comm. Don.: s littera hanc habet potestatem, ut ubi opus fuerit excludatur de metro. The character of the letter s is such that it
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 7, 2003
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                                  On Donnerstag, März 6, 2003, at 07:10 Uhr, Pavel Iosad wrote:

                                  > [David Kiltz wrote:]
                                  >
                                  >> Rather my argument is that the hierarchy can be "violated" by
                                  >> groups of the kind "sC-".
                                  >
                                  > Though one would still wonder what gives it
                                  > the special status, since 's' is less consonantic than the stops. In
                                  > PIE, that's apparently its status as the only fricative. I'd hazard a
                                  > guess that is also the case for PQ.

                                  Note however (Pomp. comm. Don.: s littera hanc habet potestatem, ut ubi
                                  opus fuerit excludatur de metro. "The character of the letter s is such
                                  that it can, when necessary, be omitted in meter"). Latin has more
                                  fricatives than just s and yet this applies only to s.

                                  Pavel and I differed in the use of the word "semiotical".
                                  Pavel sees a typological similarity between PIE and PQ plosive
                                  inventories, to which I replied:

                                  >> DH doesn't figure in Elvish.
                                  >
                                  > Substitute [+ nasalized] for [+aspirated] and you get it.

                                  Well yes, but that would work with plosive inventories of many
                                  languages.

                                  > So are you suggesting that the mono- or biphonemic realization of
                                  > the _Cy_'s depends on whether the vowel before them is short or long?

                                  No. I was indeed thinking of an elvish SIEVER'S at a time. But I don't
                                  see any compelling reason to assume it.

                                  David Kiltz


                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----------------

                                  "Cum autem nobis non dicitur, sed nobiscum; quia si ita diceretur,
                                  obscoenius concurrerent litterae, ut etiam modo, nisi autem
                                  interpossuissem, concurrissent". -Cicero
                                • Ales Bican
                                  ... **I see. Why do you think so? ... **I was not talking about a palatalized _p_, because I do not think the graphemic Cy combinations stand for palatalized
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 15, 2003
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                                    David Kiltz wrote:

                                    > Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
                                    > that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.

                                    **I see. Why do you think so?

                                    > > I think the reason why there is nothing like _p+y_ is still because
                                    > > the word-initial graphemic Cy combinations stand for one phoneme,
                                    > > not a combination of phonemes.
                                    >
                                    > I don't see the causality here. Even *if* the instances of Cy are
                                    > monophonemic, how would that preclude a combination _py_ (being also
                                    > monophonemic). Do you think a palatalized _p_ is a priori impossible ?
                                    > If it's not, the reason for its non-occurence is euphonic, either way.

                                    **I was not talking about a palatalized _p_, because I do not think
                                    the graphemic Cy combinations stand for palatalized sounds, but for
                                    _palatals_. I know Pavel's arguments and I wrote in earlier posts
                                    why I think they are palatals (Tolkien said the tengwar had a series
                                    for _palatals_ and described _ty_ as a _palatal_ stop, see the earlier
                                    posts), but I would like to know yours -- why do you think they are
                                    palatalized? I am curious to know, since many people seem to think
                                    the same and perhaps I missed something?

                                    Anyway, I am not against a palatalized _p_, but since I think initial
                                    Cy combinations in PQ are monophonematic and palatals, a palatal _p_
                                    would be hard to imagine. It would be a parallel to a palatal _m_
                                    that I and Pavel talked about (namely we talked about _my_ in
                                    _lamya_).

                                    > **Ales gives the inventory of PQ, including:
                                    >
                                    > > palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)
                                    >
                                    > In my view there is no palato-dental series.

                                    **What do you think these combinations stand for?

                                    > Indeed, _onye_ and _ohlon_ seem to contradict what I said about
                                    > _máryat_. However, if we look very closely, the cases aren't exactly
                                    > the same. _Má_ is a full blown noun whereas _ó_ is a preposition.
                                    > _Ohlon_ is a new word.

                                    **It is. However, in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reduced
                                    to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
                                    _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
                                    *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
                                    _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.

                                    > Also, inflected prepositions tend to be viewed
                                    > as one word as the developments of such inflections in e.g. Welsh and
                                    > Irish show.

                                    **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
                                    a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
                                    reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
                                    in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
                                    was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
                                    reduction.

                                    > With _máryat_, the situation is different. Note that the
                                    > _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined with a derivational
                                    > element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.

                                    **Or in _mannar_ in Fíriel's Song. But as I wrote in the very beginning:
                                    there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long vowels
                                    before a consonant cluster.

                                    > > In case of _aistana_, the relationship [with GAYAS] was perhaps
                                    > > more desired to be retained because of the words such as _aire_.
                                    >
                                    > *Maybe* an irregular soundshape was retained. But that seems highly
                                    > unusual. In all instance of homophony that Tolkien notes, the words
                                    > fall out of use.

                                    **The reason of the exception may not be just in avoiding homophony.
                                    As I said, keeping the relationship with _aire_ et al. could have
                                    played its role. As the _Melko_ example suggest, the diphthong _ai_
                                    is reduced before a consonant cluster -- and so would it be expected
                                    to be reduced before _st_. Nevertheless, I agree that the sC
                                    combinations seem to have a special status.

                                    > > As regards _Hrísto_, this is a doubtful example, because Tolkien
                                    > > change it to _Hristo_ immediately.
                                    >
                                    > Which may be indicative and may not. The Greek _i_ is also short. (Note
                                    > that _hr_ here stands by all likelihood for two sounds, representing
                                    > Greek "chi+rho". If _hr_ was indeed monophonemic, why would it have
                                    > been chosen over simple _r_ or e.g. _kr_. Do you think that _hr_
                                    > represents another sound than it does normally in Quenya ?).

                                    **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from Latin
                                    'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
                                    hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
                                    > _r-voiceless_.

                                    However, despire what was pointed by others (esp. Petri), I also
                                    think that we may deal with two phonemes (rather then phones) here,
                                    namely _h_ + _r_. This combination may be realized as voiceless
                                    _r_ word-initially (which be d'accord with Tolkien's words cited
                                    by Petri) but as a biphonic combination _hr_ word-medially (which
                                    would explain _ohlon_).

                                    When I studied Old English grammars when working on the Atalante
                                    fragment analysis, I found out that OE has _hr_, _hl_, _hy_ and
                                    _hw_ occurring only word-initially (and in compounds). This is
                                    where Tolkien took the idea, I suppose. However, I have not been
                                    able to find out how these _hr, hl, hy, hw_ are treated
                                    phonologically: whether as a biphonemic combinations _h_ + sonant
                                    or monophonemic voiceless sonants.

                                    > > Phonetically according to the sonority scale [stems like MBAR]
                                    > > should be dissyllabic. Phonologically, however, they seem
                                    > > to be monosyllabic.
                                    >
                                    > I agree with you in your assessment of _MB_ etc. as monophonemic.
                                    > Your last sentence, however, I think is wrong. In my opinion, there is
                                    > no phonetic/phonological contradiction here. If _MBAR_ is indeed
                                    > monosyllabic it also is phonetically so. Because there is no scale
                                    > then. _MB_ has óne pitch, then.

                                    **What I meant to say is that for instance MBAR may represent
                                    two phonetic syllables M and BAR if M is here syllabic. However,
                                    phonologically MBAR may be just one syllable if we assume that
                                    PQ did not allow any word-initial consonantal combinations except
                                    for _s_ + consonant (under the assumtion that Cy combinations are
                                    monophonematic -- and I think they are).

                                    As far as I know (though I have not been able to investigate details
                                    yet) K. L. Pike made a distinction between phonetic and phonemic
                                    syllables (in his _Phonemics_). Reportedly, he mentioned that the
                                    word [Ndá:] in the Mixteco language; this word is both phonetically
                                    and phonemically dissyllabic, but whereas the syllable separation is
                                    [N-dá:] phonetically, it is /nda-a/ phonemically, because Mixteco
                                    is a tone language, where each syllable has a tone but [N] has no
                                    tone, and _nd-_ is one phoneme, because there are otherwise no
                                    consonant clusters in the language.

                                    > We are dealing with prenasalized stops here, I'd say.

                                    **Yes, they seem to be (Tolkien speaks about them as nasalized
                                    explosives in _The Qenya Phonology_).

                                    > _umbar_ may well not be a case of a syllabic _m_ but
                                    > actually *_ú-mbar_ "ill fate".

                                    **Sure, that is possible. However, there are other examples, like
                                    ÑGYÓ > Q _indyo_.

                                    > (Unfortunately I'm unable to access two of the sources mentioned by
                                    > Ales an Carl: David Salo's post and PE 12 (as well as 11).

                                    **I understand that you are not able to access PE12, as it is out of
                                    print (which does not help the scholarship at all!), but David's post
                                    should be accessible via www. If you are still unable to access it,
                                    let me know off-list and I will forward it to you.

                                    [Out of print does not necessarily mean inaccessible; there is,
                                    _inter alia_, library loan. CFH]

                                    Ales Bican

                                    --
                                    kurvannapi vyalíkáni yah. priyah. priya eva sah.
                                    anekadós.adus.t.ó 'pi káyah. kasya na vallabhah.
                                  • Ales Bican
                                    ... **You are right, thanks. Here, however, we cannot say the morphological module would give a form like *_léndie_ and the phonology proper module would
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 16, 2003
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                                      Pavel Iosad wrote:

                                      > > **Er, did I miss something? As far as I know neither the perfect of
                                      > > _lelya-_ (did you mean _auta-_?)
                                      >
                                      > I was referring to IX:56, where the forms _lendien_ and
                                      > _nilendie_ occur, and they are to be compared with the first edition's
                                      > _vánier_, as well with the facing page (IX:57), where the perfect of
                                      > #_tuv-_'find' consistently shows a long vowel (in both of the texts):
                                      > _túvien_.

                                      **You are right, thanks. Here, however, we cannot say the
                                      morphological module would give a form like *_léndie_ and
                                      the 'phonology proper' module would then give the actual
                                      output _lendie_, because the stem was already strengthened
                                      by a nasal-infixed _n_, which is comparable to the lengthening
                                      in, say, _káre_ "made, did".

                                      By the way, what about the present tense of _lanta-_? Did you
                                      mean the form _lantar_ in Namárie?

                                      > > Nevertheless, there is a form which may show that the stem-vowel
                                      > > is not shortened if preceded by _nt_: it is the preterite _lantie_
                                      > > "fell" (be it either the past tense or perfect; LR:56).
                                      >
                                      > _nt_ is straightforwardly a cluster, I think, there's not a lot of
                                      > problem with it.

                                      **So is _nd_.

                                      > > There is no sign for Czech _r-hacek_, either.
                                      >
                                      > That'd be coarticulated [r] and [Z].

                                      **Is it? As far as I understand and as I hear, it is not coarticulated. Or
                                      does the quotation from Trubetzkoy suggest so?

                                      > > **While I agree with this, I still ask why we have _onye_, _olye_ but
                                      > > _máryat_.
                                      >
                                      > One explanation is because the long _á_ in _máryat_ is etymological (<
                                      > *_-A3_), but the _o_ in _onye_, _olye_ is etymologically short.

                                      **I do not think so. The base in Etym is given as WÔ (though in _Quendi
                                      and Eldar_ as WO, WJ:367).

                                      > > **Although this sounds likely and might be true, especially what regards
                                      > > the _nCy_ sequences, I do not dare to combine all Cy combinations --
                                      > > [Ales suspects that the Cy combinations in anlaut and inlaut are not
                                      > > one and the same thing]
                                      >
                                      > Well, yes, they would be pronounced differently (the difference being
                                      > the presence/absence of the glide).

                                      **Now the question whether the glide is phonologic, I mean whether the
                                      glide is a separate phoneme.

                                      > > **If the _ky_ combination stands [in _Erukyerme_ and _Ekyanáro_]
                                      > > for one phoneme, then I think
                                      > > it is a voiceless palato-velar stop, the same sound that is
                                      > > reconstructed for Indo-European (if I am not mistaken).
                                      >
                                      > The difference between palato-velar and palatal is not so great, anyway
                                      > the two are not attested as distinctive anywhere.

                                      **The degree of difference is relative. I can say the difference between
                                      the sound in English _bad_ and _bed_ is not so great (and I still would
                                      hesitate which one is which if one of the words was uttered without any
                                      context), yet it is distinctive in English.
                                      And the typology obstacle is not so relevant. The _r-hacek_ (now that
                                      we speak about it) is also very rare.
                                      Here I mean the situation in Primitive Quendian rather, because _ky_
                                      in Q _Erukyerme_ and _Ekyanáro_ may be just a variant of _ty_.

                                      > > Neither of the most commonly taught languages
                                      > > (i.e. French, Spanish, German) have a palatal _t_. In fact, which
                                      > > European languages besides Czech, Slovak and Hungarian have it?
                                      >
                                      > Latvian. Macedonian. Albanian. (note all of these are not only European,
                                      > but also Indo-European)

                                      **And that is the problem: Tolkien could not have mentioned either
                                      of these languages, because a normal English reader could not know
                                      either of them.

                                      > > On the other hand, the "d" component is often lost, as _Quendya_
                                      > > > _Quenya_ shows.
                                      >
                                      > Are there examples of this in _The Etymologies_? Remember that the
                                      > example is from Q&E.

                                      **There is _endya_ and _enya_ "middle" under the base ENED.


                                      Ales Bican

                                      --
                                      kurvannapi vyalíkáni yah. priyah. priya eva sah.
                                      anekadós.adus.t.ó 'pi káyah. kasya na vallabhah.
                                    • Lukas Novak
                                      ... AFAIK and hear, it is like [r], only the frequency of trilling is about thrice as high. I think that pronunciation as coarticulated [r] and [Z] would be
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 16, 2003
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                                        Ales Bican wrote:

                                        >> > There is no sign for Czech _r-hacek_, either.
                                        >>
                                        >> That'd be coarticulated [r] and [Z].

                                        > **Is it? As far as I understand and as I hear, it is not coarticulated. Or
                                        > does the quotation from Trubetzkoy suggest so?

                                        AFAIK and hear, it is like [r], only the frequency of trilling is
                                        about thrice as high. I think that pronunciation as coarticulated [r]
                                        and [Z] would be funny and incorrect (it would betray a stranger :-)).

                                        Lukas
                                      • David Kiltz
                                        ... I will address this issue in a seperate post. ... I understand now. ... Again more on that seperately. ... Yes, I don t see how a labial could be anything
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 16, 2003
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                                          On Samstag, März 15, 2003, at 06:53 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

                                          > David Kiltz wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
                                          >> that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.
                                          >
                                          > **I see. Why do you think so?

                                          I will address this issue in a seperate post.

                                          > **I was not talking about a palatalized _p_, because I do not think
                                          > the graphemic Cy combinations stand for palatalized sounds, but for
                                          > _palatals_.

                                          I understand now.

                                          > -- why do you think they are palatalized?

                                          Again more on that seperately.

                                          > Anyway, I am not against a palatalized _p_, but since I think initial
                                          > Cy combinations in PQ are monophonematic and palatals, a palatal _p_
                                          > would be hard to imagine. It would be a parallel to a palatal _m_
                                          > that I and Pavel talked about (namely we talked about _my_ in
                                          > _lamya_).

                                          Yes, I don't see how a labial could be anything other than "palatalized".

                                          >> **Ales gives the inventory of PQ, including:
                                          >>
                                          >>> palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)
                                          >>
                                          >> In my view there is no palato-dental series.
                                          >
                                          > **What do you think these combinations stand for?

                                          Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
                                          where palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
                                          place as e.g. English [sh and zh]). At any rate an inventory with regular
                                          palatals + palato-dentals looks very dubious. Again, I think true dental
                                          pronunciation only allows for palatalization.

                                          > in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reduced
                                          > to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
                                          > _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
                                          > *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
                                          > _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.

                                          Yes, I agree. Just as _ry_ is.

                                          >> Also, inflected prepositions tend to be viewed as one word as the
                                          >> developments of such inflections in e.g. Welsh and Irish show.
                                          >
                                          > **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
                                          > a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
                                          > reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
                                          > in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
                                          > was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
                                          > reduction.

                                          Just what I said. I noted that _ó_ is a preposition and that it is
                                          inflected. I am and was quite aware that _ohlon_ is not an inflected
                                          preposition. My remarks were meant to contrast this, in my view perfectly
                                          regular behaviour, with that of _máryat_. Interestingly, you're answering your
                                          own question about _ny_. I think it stands for _n+y_, a cluster indeed.

                                          >> Note that the _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined
                                          >> with a derivational element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.
                                          >
                                          > there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long
                                          > vowels before a consonant cluster.

                                          But we see reduction almost everywhere else.

                                          > **The reason of the exception may not be just in avoiding homophony.
                                          > As I said, keeping the relationship with _aire_ et al. could have played its role.

                                          Agreed.

                                          > **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from Latin
                                          > 'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
                                          > hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
                                          > _r-voiceless_.

                                          The word is of Greek origin. Why would it be taken from Latin where it
                                          is itself a loan? Also, in view of Christian-Latin texts and the development
                                          of the word "Christus" in the Romanic languages (_cr-_) I think it was
                                          pronounced [kr]. That makes a direct loan from Greek into Quenya even
                                          more likely, I'd say.

                                          > I found out that OE has _hr_, _hl_, _hy_ and
                                          > _hw_ occurring only word-initially (and in compounds). This is
                                          > where Tolkien took the idea, I suppose. However, I have not been
                                          > able to find out how these _hr, hl, hy, hw_ are treated
                                          > phonologically: whether as a biphonemic combinations _h_ + sonant
                                          > or monophonemic voiceless sonants.

                                          1) They are biphonemic combinations as can be gleaned from their use in
                                          alliterative verse. These _h_'s go back to pre-Germanic _k_.

                                          2) I don't think this is where Tolkien got the inspiration. At least
                                          not in the case of _hl_ and _hr_ which < *_sl_ and *_sr_. I'd warrant
                                          the guess that the sounds (voiceless _l_ and _r_), were suggested to
                                          him by Welsh.

                                          David Kiltz
                                        • Lukas Novak
                                          ... Please excuse my amateur query: Would the distinction between Polish c-acute or s-acute and cz, sz respectively, be of the kind you re speaking about?
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 17, 2003
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                                            David Kiltz wrote:

                                            > Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
                                            > were palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
                                            > place as e.g. English [sh and zh]).
                                            > At any rate an inventory with regular palatals + palato-dentals looks
                                            > very dubious.

                                            Please excuse my amateur query: Would the distinction between Polish
                                            c-acute or s-acute and cz, sz respectively, be of the kind you're
                                            speaking about?

                                            Lukas
                                          • Ales Bican
                                            ... **Ok. Am looking forward to. ... **As I said I was not a phonetician. What I mean by palato-dentals is the sounds like _t , d _ in Czech and Hungarian
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 9 7:51 AM
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                                              David Kiltz wrote:

                                              > >> Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
                                              > >> that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.
                                              > >
                                              > > **I see. Why do you think so?
                                              >
                                              > I will address this issue in a seperate post.

                                              **Ok. Am looking forward to.

                                              > > **What do you think these combinations (Ty, Dy, Ny (+Thy)) stand for?
                                              >
                                              > Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
                                              > where palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
                                              > place as e.g. English [sh and zh]).

                                              **As I said I was not a phonetician. What I mean by palato-dentals is
                                              the sounds like _t', d'_ in Czech and Hungarian (called "palatals" in IPA).
                                              They are not palatalized in the sense that the palatalization is a kind of
                                              secondary articulation, a timbre added to primary articulation. Of course,
                                              the difference between a palatal _t'_ and palatalized _t_ would be very
                                              difficult to perceive.

                                              They may well be palato-alveolars, but the difference between alveolars
                                              and dentals is not relevant here; English _t_ is alveolar, while Czech _t_
                                              is dental or rather pre-alveolar. I chose to call them dentals, because Tolkien
                                              speaks about these sounds as dentals.

                                              > At any rate an inventory with regular
                                              > palatals + palato-dentals looks very dubious. Again, I think true dental
                                              > pronunciation only allows for palatalization.

                                              **It is certainly a little bit strange to have both palato-velars and palato-
                                              dentals in one system. The question is how else interpret KY and TY.

                                              > > in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reduced
                                              > > to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
                                              > > _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
                                              > > *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
                                              > > _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.
                                              >
                                              > Yes, I agree. Just as _ry_ is.

                                              **This is what I think from the beginning -- and therefore we can have
                                              a long vowel before a consonant cluster (sc. _máryat_).

                                              > > **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
                                              > > a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
                                              > > reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
                                              > > in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
                                              > > was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
                                              > > reduction.
                                              >
                                              > Just what I said. I noted that _ó_ is a preposition and that it is
                                              > inflected. I am and was quite aware that _ohlon_ is not an inflected
                                              > preposition. My remarks were meant to contrast this, in my view perfectly
                                              > regular behaviour, with that of _máryat_. Interestingly, you're answering your
                                              > own question about _ny_. I think it stands for _n+y_, a cluster indeed.

                                              **Again, I think the same from the beginning when I talked about
                                              primary and secondary Cy combinations. The question is now
                                              whether the combination _ny_ should be identified with word-initial
                                              _ny-_, I mean whether we could say that the biphonematic combination
                                              /nj/ is realized as [nj] (resp. [n'j] or [Nj]; n' = palatalized; N = palatal n)
                                              intervocalically and as [N] word-initially and after another consonant
                                              (i.e. in cases like _nty_ or _lty_). I hesitate to do so, though.

                                              > >> Note that the _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined
                                              > >> with a derivational element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.
                                              > >
                                              > > there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long
                                              > > vowels before a consonant cluster.
                                              >
                                              > But we see reduction almost everywhere else.

                                              **That is true. And my best explanation is that _máryat_ is some kind
                                              of exception.

                                              > > **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from Latin
                                              > > 'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
                                              > > hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
                                              > > _r-voiceless_.
                                              >
                                              > The word is of Greek origin. Why would it be taken from Latin where it
                                              > is itself a loan?

                                              **Well, I am not skilled in these things. I just thought that _María_ seemed
                                              to be taken from Latin and so could _Hristo_ be.

                                              > Also, in view of Christian-Latin texts and the development
                                              > of the word "Christus" in the Romanic languages (_cr-_) I think it was
                                              > pronounced [kr]. That makes a direct loan from Greek into Quenya even
                                              > more likely, I'd say.

                                              **I may be wrong but I have always thought it was pronounced
                                              [xr-] in Greek, since Greek had the [x] sound, and this pronunciation
                                              was used in Latin, too. I may be wrong, of course.

                                              [on _hl, hr_ etc. in Old English:]

                                              > 1) They are biphonemic combinations as can be gleaned from their use in
                                              > alliterative verse. These _h_'s go back to pre-Germanic _k_.

                                              **I see. I suspected it was so.

                                              > 2) I don't think this is where Tolkien got the inspiration. At least
                                              > not in the case of _hl_ and _hr_ which < *_sl_ and *_sr_. I'd warrant
                                              > the guess that the sounds (voiceless _l_ and _r_), were suggested to
                                              > him by Welsh.

                                              **Thanks for the information. I do not know any Welsh but I
                                              know a little bit Old English, so this is why I thought so.
                                              Anyway, what is the phonologic status of _hr_ and _hl_ in Welsh
                                              then? And are you suggesting that they are reflexes of _sl_ and
                                              _sr_?


                                              Ales Bican
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