Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Lambengolmor] Quenya intervocalic -d-'s revisited

Expand Messages
  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... There is another factor to consider about the possible convergence of these two particular roots. While along side and against, opposed to, opposite
    Message 1 of 15 , May 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      On 5/31/02 7:42 PM, "Pavel Iosad" <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:

      > While I was re-reading VT43 again, the following caught my eye on p. 33,
      > "the contemporary list of prepositions mentioned in the discussion of
      > _aselye_ above gives the root _ara_ 'along side' (in apparent contrast
      > with another root, _ada_ 'against, opposed to, opposite)...'

      There is another factor to consider about the possible convergence of these
      two particular roots. While "along side" and "against, opposed to, opposite"
      may seem impossibly disparate in sense, English itself shows a blending and
      blurring of these concepts. Consider: if I say I am fighting _with_ someone,
      only context can determine whether I mean that I am fighting _against_
      someone, or fighting _along side_ them. Either interpretation is possible.
      And if I say I am _against_ something, I can mean that I am _opposed_ to it,
      or that I am _along side_ it (here, the nature of the thing say I am against
      will likely be determinative).


      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • Ivan A Derzhanski
      ... I don t think so. The prime directive is: No /d/ in Quenya except in the combinations /ld nd rd/ (LR:1155). ... There s also Mandarin _guai1_ (1)
      Message 2 of 15 , May 31, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Pavel Iosad wrote:

        > Nevertheless, given the roots' opposite meanings, I would suggest
        > that it is possible that the _d_ > _r_ shift should be blocked by
        > the necessity of disambiguation.

        I don't think so. The prime directive is: No /d/ in Quenya
        except in the combinations /ld nd rd/ (LR:1155).

        > It doesn't seem likely that antonyms should be homonyms in a
        > language (oh yes, there's Mandarin _míng_ which means both
        > 'bright' and 'dark', but still...).

        There's also Mandarin _guai1_ (1) `obedient, well-behaved';
        (2) contrary, in spite of'. Or Russian _zadut'_ `blow out
        (a candle); blow in (a blast-furnace)', _zalechit' `heal (a
        wound); doctor (a patient) to death'. Or Persian <qarIb>
        `close, kin' and its homophone <.garIb> `strange, alien'.
        Or the famous English examples such as _cleave_.

        Languages don't exactly love this kind of thing, but they
        can live with it. And when they do seek to eliminate it,
        they do so by replacing one of the conflicting lexical
        units by a synonym, not by irregular application of
        an otherwise regular sound shift.

        > Therefore the question is still valid - can sound changes
        > be blocked by semantic necessities in Quenya?

        I'll grant that such consideration might catalyse or inhibit
        an instance of a sound shift in a particular word in Quenya,
        provided that the irregularly derived word is still in line
        with the language's phonology, incl. phonotactics. However,
        when a sound is generally on its way out, its exceptional
        preservation in one or two words on semantic grounds is high
        on my list of things that just can't happen.

        > Can then the _d_ in _Aldudénië_ be written off
        > to disambiguation requirements?

        I think _Aldudénië_ has to be a misreading or a miswriting,
        or perhaps a word wrongly interpreted as Quenya.

        --
        <fa-al-_haylu wa-al-laylu wa-al-baydA'u ta`rifunI
        wa-as-sayfu wa-ar-rum.hu wa-al-qir.tAsu wa-al-qalamu>
        (Abu t-Tayyib Ahmad Ibn Hussayn al-Mutanabbi)
        Ivan A Derzhanski <http://www.math.bas.bg/ml/iad/>
        H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria <iad@...>
        W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences
      • Pavel Iosad
        Hello, ... Fair point. As a matter of fact, these things can blend in other (Indo-European?) languages as well. In Russian, for example, the situation with
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 1 6:40 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello,

          Carl wrote:

          > There is another factor to consider about the possible convergence
          > of these two particular roots. While "along side" and "against,
          > opposed to, opposite" may seem impossibly disparate in sense,
          > English itself shows a blending and blurring of these concepts.

          Fair point. As a matter of fact, these things can blend in other
          (Indo-European?) languages as well. In Russian, for example, the
          situation with 'fighting' is identical to the English. The question
          however reamins - would the two roots merge on the phonemic
          level or not? I would contend that it is possible that the two
          roots do remain asunder. We could try and reconstruct the
          earliest root as *AD-A with the meaning of 'adjunction', possibly.
          It would then show divergence in later Eldarin, mainly in the
          Vanyarin dialects. And we still don't know whether these could
          converge _back_ in Quenya (gues it is possible they wouldn't).
          Alternately, this could be a case of a hypothetic D/R variation,
          similar to the alternation of D/L, referred to in XI:363.

          But then, it's been a long time since I told myself not to build
          grandiose theories out if a single example! The above is pretty
          likely to be completely bogus :-)

          Pavel
          --
          Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

          'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
          --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_

          ---------------------------------------

          [Even if "completely bogus", it is thoughtfully constructed and
          raises interesting questions about language that are worthy of
          exploration. Carl]
        • Pavel Iosad
          Hello, Ivan wrote: (not that I am not convinced...) [...] ... I m no expert at Persian, but as regards the first two (actually three) examples, the syntactic
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 1 10:29 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello,

            Ivan wrote:

            (not that I am not convinced...)

            [...]
            > > It doesn't seem likely that antonyms should be homonyms in a
            > > language (oh yes, there's Mandarin _míng[2]_ which means both
            > > 'bright' and 'dark', but still...).
            >
            > There's also Mandarin _guai1_ (1) `obedient, well-behaved';
            > (2) contrary, in spite of'. Or Russian _zadut'_ `blow out
            > (a candle); blow in (a blast-furnace)', _zalechit' `heal (a
            > wound); doctor (a patient) to death'. Or Persian <qarIb>
            > `close, kin' and its homophone <.garIb> `strange, alien'.

            I'm no expert at Persian, but as regards the first two (actually three)
            examples, the syntactic properties and/or context are sufficient to make
            clear which meaning is intended. As regards Quenya, clearly the
            distributive properties of the two will be identical (but hey, there's
            the case system which can be used for disambiguation after all!).

            > Or the famous English examples such as _cleave_.

            Again, there are the sytactic properties ('cleave to sth.' vs. 'cleave
            sth.')

            [...]
            OK, so we can establish that the two roots may have fallen together.
            Anyone has suggestions on which cases to use with which _*ara_?
            (Allative vs. Ablative? Dative vs. Ablative? Or something completely
            different?)

            [...]
            > I think _Aldudénië_ has to be a misreading or a miswriting,

            For what? :-))

            > or perhaps a word wrongly interpreted as Quenya.

            What is it then? Obviously not Telerin - no _*#g-_!

            Pavel
            --
            Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

            'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
            --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
          • Pavel Iosad
            Hello All, ... Which leads us to the problem of a proper phonological analysis of Quenya. To wit: are the nasalised voiced stops /mb nd ñg/ single phonemes,
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 7 9:22 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello All,

              Answering my question on Quenya intervocalic -d-'s, Ivan wrote:

              > The prime directive is: No /d/ in Quenya
              > except in the combinations /ld nd rd/ (LR:1155).

              Which leads us to the problem of a proper phonological analysis of
              Quenya. To wit: are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd ñg/ single
              phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?

              I hold it is the latter.

              But evidence is scanty, and I would like to discuss this question with a
              more knowledgeable company. So what would the assembly's opinion be,
              taking into account the following pieces of evidence:

              1) Consistent use of the word _combinations_ in Appendix E when
              referring to Grades 2 and 4 seems to argue that the sequence is
              biphonemic.

              2) These groups were clearly considered "long" for purposes of stress in
              early (and later) Sindarin, as per LR:1089 (it appears I am using a
              different edition than Ivan above). This would imply that in the
              structure of a word like _*periandath_ the _a_ in the penult qualifies
              as a vowel followed by two consonants, ergo /nd/ is biphonemic. This
              meets two objections - even early Sindarin is not Quenya (though I'd
              assume the phonological workings of the two would be exceptionally
              similar), and the second of a more fundamental nature. If we assume /nd/
              is monophonemic, the stress would still fall on the penult in this case,
              since /nd/ (be it mono- or biphonemic) is an impermissible onset, since
              no word in Quenya begins with it. On yet another hand, this latter
              argument could be taken as evidence for the biphonemic status of the
              group in question, as the restriction could then be explained in terms
              of the restriction on initial clusters in Quenya.

              3) There is little reason to distinguish /nd/ from /ld/ and /rd/. The
              latter are clearly biphonemic. It would then seem that a voiced stop is
              in a strong position when clustered with an alveolar sonorant. It is
              unclear whether /b/ shifted to /v/ after /l/ as a matter of some later
              dialect, or of a regular phonological process (since it appears that the
              Elves themselves did use _lb_ (LR:1095)). To clarify: /g/ shifted to a
              voiced /h/ regularly in Ukrainian and southern Russian dialects,
              however, there was no process of a regular voiced stop > homorganic
              voiced fricative shift. The only argument to see nasalisation as
              phonemically relevant attribute is its typological justification.
              Otherwise, we could as well argue that /ld/ is a phoneme while /nd/ and
              /rd/ are biphonemic. This doesn't seem likely at all

              4) However, there are clear cases of metathesis (e.g. in the past tense
              of basic verbs). A biphonemic sequence yielding a single phoneme is not
              at all impossible (cf. the conduct of Slavic *tj and *dj). Why would
              *_tek-ne_ yield *_tencë_? An answer might be positing not a metathesis
              (i.e. not the development of two sounds), but a nasalisation of the last
              consonant of a CVC- root as a phonological process a bit like the Irish
              attenuation and broadening (caolú and leathnú). Such an interpretation
              seems to be an argument for the monophonemic status.

              Overall, I still think the biphonemic interpretation is the better one,
              not the least because it is the less complex one. I am sure there is
              more to it than the outline above.

              Any comments?

              Pavel
              --
              Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

              'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
              --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
            • Candon McLean
              ... They can only be biphonemic. The question is are they coarticulated or not? For example, Ladefoged ignores phonemes like [tS] and [d3] in the IPA, in
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 7 11:49 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- Pavel Iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:

                > Which leads us to the problem of a proper phonological analysis of
                > Quenya. To wit: are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd �g/ single
                > phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?

                They can only be biphonemic. The question is are they coarticulated
                or not? For example, Ladefoged ignores "phonemes" like [tS] and [d3]
                in the IPA, in fact they aren't in the IPA, because his phonetic work
                has shown that they are two sounds that are coarticulated (see
                Ladefoged _A Course in Phonetics_ 1975. 4th edition). Clusters like
                [mb], found in some African languages etc., are also not in the IPA
                because they are coarticulated.

                I believe by phoneme you mean coarticulate and by biphonemic you mean
                two independently articulated segments.

                A crucial test (which may be beyond us) is to see if the cluster
                splits into a coda and an onset:

                e.g. /lambe/ > 1. [lam.be] or 2. [la.mbe].

                If (1) then the cluster has two independently articualted segments;
                if (2) then the cluster is coarticulated and thus a "phoneme."

                An example from English is 'judging:' /d3Ud3 + Ing/ > [d3U.d3Ing],
                where /ng/ = the sound ingma, i.e. the velar nasal. In the English
                example it's clear that /d3/ is coarticulated as the sound does not
                split across syllable boundaries.

                I don't remember if Tolkien has given us discriptions of the
                syllabification of these clusters. If he hasn't then we need to
                listen again to his recordings (but these maybe inaccurate as he
                wasn't a native speaker of Quenya, alas).

                Candon


                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
              • pavel_iosad
                Hello, ... Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-) ... As a matter of fact, I was referring to the phoneme as a unit of structural analysis (which And
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 7 11:31 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello,
                  Candon wrote:
                  > > Which leads us to the problem of a proper phonological analysis
                  > > of Quenya. To wit: are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd ñg/
                  > > single phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?
                  >
                  > They can only be biphonemic.

                  Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)

                  > I believe by phoneme you mean coarticulate and by biphonemic you
                  > mean two independently articulated segments.

                  As a matter of fact, I was referring to the phoneme as a unit of
                  structural analysis (which And rejects, just don't beat me now :-))
                  and not as a segment in the speech.

                  > A crucial test (which may be beyond us) is to see if the cluster
                  > splits into a coda and an onset:
                  >
                  > e.g. /lambe/ > 1. [lam.be] or 2. [la.mbe].
                  >
                  > If (1) then the cluster has two independently articualted segments;
                  > if (2) then the cluster is coarticulated and thus a "phoneme."

                  I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary test,
                  as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which was
                  pronounced as a cluster (in the Third Age at least), was still
                  permitted word-initially, demonstrating it was not a cluster
                  phonologically.

                  Besides, the syllabification test allows both interpretations, as
                  the whole of the /nd/ group obviously is included in the prceding
                  syllable, as per the Maximum Onset Principle. Quenya words do not
                  start in /d/, ergo /d/ is an impermissible onset. Ditto with /nd/,

                  Pavel
                  --
                  Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

                  'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
                  --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
                • Candon McLean
                  Hi, ... The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows overlapping wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and before its wave has ended [S] begins.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 8 7:43 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,

                    --- pavel_iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:

                    >>> Which leads us to the problem of a proper phonological analysis
                    >>> of Quenya. To wit: are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd �g/
                    >>> single phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?

                    Candon wrote:
                    >> They can only be biphonemic.

                    Pavel wrote:
                    > Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)

                    The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows overlapping
                    wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and before its wave
                    has ended [S] begins.

                    I believe this work was started in the 50's and 60's at Edinburgh,
                    which perhaps means Tolkien was aware of it.

                    Candon wrote:
                    >> I believe by phoneme you mean coarticulated and by biphonemic you
                    >> mean two independently articulated segments.

                    Pavel wrote:
                    > As a matter of fact, I was referring to the phoneme as a unit of
                    > structural analysis (which And rejects, just don't beat me now :-))
                    > and not as a segment in the speech.

                    The acoustic analysis is clear that this isn't so, but for
                    convenience and a shorthand lable, perhaps we could call
                    coarticulated segments a phoneme (as long as we remember that they
                    are not).

                    Candon wrote:
                    >> A crucial test (which may be beyond us) is to see if the cluster
                    >> splits into a coda and an onset:
                    >> e.g. /lambe/ > 1. [lam.be] or 2. [la.mbe].
                    >> If (1) then the cluster has two independently articualted segments;
                    >> if (2) then the cluster is coarticulated and thus a "phoneme."

                    Pavel wrote:
                    > I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary test,
                    > as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which was
                    > pronounced as a cluster (in the Third Age at least), was still
                    > permitted word-initially, demonstrating it was not a cluster
                    > phonologically.

                    I'm not sure I follow this. In English we have word initial /kw/ and
                    it is biphonemic. Quenya <qu> seems to be of the same sort.

                    Pavel wrote:
                    > Besides, the syllabification test allows both interpretations, as
                    > the whole of the /nd/ group obviously is included in the prceding
                    > syllable, as per the Maximum Onset Principle. Quenya words do not
                    > start in /d/, ergo /d/ is an impermissible onset. Ditto with /nd/,

                    I'm not sure it's obvious. It's true that Quenya only allows
                    palatalized or labialized consonant clusters word initially, but what
                    happens word internally isn't clear.

                    So, your claim is because /d/ is never an onset /nd/ will not split
                    word internally. I don't believe this _has_ to be true. But let's
                    say it is. What about the cluster /nt/? /t/ is allowed in onset
                    position. So the syllabification of a word like _tintalle_ > 1.
                    [tin.tal.le], or 2. [tint.al.le] will help us decide if clusters are
                    coarticulated or not.

                    Perhaps we can make an argument based on Tolkien's asthetic tastes to
                    help us decide. It's clear that Tolkien was interested in creating a
                    euphonic language. Which is the more euphonic syllabification of
                    Quenya _sinda_? 1. [sin.da] or 2. [sind.a] It seems clear to me
                    that (1) is more euphonic, and it is easier to articulate (the same
                    can be said of _tintalle_(1)above. Ease of articulation also seems
                    to have been important to Tolkien (cf. /n/ + /s/ > [ss] (e.g.
                    _Elessar_).

                    Notice also that when segments assimilate (for ease of
                    articulation) they don't disappear. This would indicate that both
                    segments [ss] in _Elessar_ are pronounced (as compared with
                    _*elesar_.

                    If both segments are indeed pronounced, this in turn seems to
                    indicate that the cluster is _not_ coarticulated as the best way to
                    make [ss] salient (i.e. perceivable) is to split the cluster [s.s]


                    If we don't have Tolkien's ideas on syllabification (and I haven't
                    had time to look into it), then his desire for euphony and ease of
                    articulation perhaps can shed some light on whether quenya clusters
                    are coarticulated, i.e. "phonemic," or not.

                    Candon

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                    http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                  • pavel_iosad
                    Hello, I m still sceptical about acoustic evidence, nevertheless. Candon wrote: [...] ... But I was trying to find out exactly whether they are or are not! :-)
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 8 9:49 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello,

                      I'm still sceptical about acoustic evidence, nevertheless.

                      Candon wrote:
                      [...]
                      > The acoustic analysis is clear that this isn't so, but for
                      > convenience and a shorthand lable, perhaps we could call
                      > coarticulated segments a phoneme (as long as we remember that they
                      > are not).

                      But I was trying to find out exactly whether they are or are not! :-)


                      > > I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary
                      > > test, as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which
                      > > was pronounced as a cluster (in the Third Age at least), was
                      > > still permitted word-initially, demonstrating it was not a
                      > > cluster phonologically.
                      >
                      > I'm not sure I follow this. In English we have word initial /kw/
                      > and it is biphonemic. Quenya <qu> seems to be of the same sort.

                      Quenya doesn't allow initial clusters at all. Thus, _qu_, which is
                      permissible initially, is _not_ a cluster

                      > I'm not sure it's obvious. It's true that Quenya only allows
                      > palatalized or labialized consonant clusters word initially, but
                      > what happens word internally isn't clear.

                      I'd say that the palatalized and labilaized sounds are precisely
                      monophonemic.

                      > So, your claim is because /d/ is never an onset /nd/ will not split
                      > word internally. I don't believe this _has_ to be true. But let's
                      > say it is. What about the cluster /nt/? /t/ is allowed in onset
                      > position.

                      Good point, but it is obvious that the unvoiced stops have much
                      fewer phonotactical restrcitions imposed on them than the voiced
                      ones.

                      On the ohter hand, this example amply demonstrates that /mp nt ng/
                      are biphonemic sequences. This would mean that plosives
                      (phonemically) present a rather strange system /p/ ~ /b/ ~ /mb/.
                      Such a system is highly untypological. The only structurally
                      analogous situation I can think is the traditional PIE
                      reconstruction (substitute aspiration ofr nasalisation). But that
                      may precisely have been the inspiration! It would be "very
                      Tolkien" :-)

                      [...]
                      > If we don't have Tolkien's ideas on syllabification (and I haven't
                      > had time to look into it), then his desire for euphony and ease of
                      > articulation perhaps can shed some light on whether quenya clusters
                      > are coarticulated, i.e. "phonemic," or not.

                      Still, I do not see any direct correlation between coarticulation
                      and monopohnemic status.

                      But perhaps the better-learned ones here will clarify it for me...:-)

                      Pavel
                      --
                      Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

                      'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
                      --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
                    • Ivan A Derzhanski
                      ... [...] ... [...] ... Acoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of that
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 8 9:59 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Candon McLean wrote:
                        > --- pavel_iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:
                        > >>> are the 'nasalised' voiced stops /mb nd сg/
                        > >>> single phonemes, or biphonemic sequences?
                        [...]
                        > >> They can only be biphonemic.
                        [...]
                        > The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows overlapping
                        > wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and before
                        > its wave has ended [S] begins.

                        Acoustic phonetics is not about phonemes at all. Whatever sequence
                        of wave forms the language treats as a phoneme is by virtue of that
                        fact a phoneme.

                        > > I believe coarticulation in Quenya at least isn't the primary test,
                        > > as demonstrated by the fact that the Quenya _qu_, which was
                        > > pronounced as a cluster [...], was still permitted word-initially,
                        > > demonstrating it was not a cluster phonologically.
                        >
                        > I'm not sure I follow this. In English we have word initial /kw/
                        > and it is biphonemic. Quenya <qu> seems to be of the same sort.

                        English allows word-initial (and generally syllable-initial)
                        clusters. Quenya doesn't. So the evidence of English isn't
                        automatically relevant to Quenya.

                        > Pavel wrote:
                        > > Besides, the syllabification test allows both interpretations, as
                        > > the whole of the /nd/ group obviously is included in the prceding
                        > > syllable, as per the Maximum Onset Principle. Quenya words do not
                        > > start in /d/, ergo /d/ is an impermissible onset. Ditto with /nd/,
                        [...]
                        > So, your claim is because /d/ is never an onset /nd/ will not split
                        > word internally. I don't believe this _has_ to be true.

                        As a matter of fact, it does not. Think of Finnish medial /ht/.
                        It has to split as /h/+/t/, because a cluster can be neither an
                        onset nor a coda, but we have to live with the fact that /h/ can
                        be a coda of a non-final syllable (though not a final one).

                        --Ivan
                      • fr3dr1k_s
                        ... Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the word coo . The
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 8 11:56 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Candon McLean wrote:

                          >>> They can only be biphonemic.
                          >> Evidence? :-) I do agree, but still... :-)
                          >The evidence is in acoustic phonetics which shows
                          >overlapping wave-forms for sounds like [tS], i.e. [t] peaks and
                          >before its wave has ended [S] begins.

                          Few sounds in speech are *not* coarticulated in that sense. For
                          example, by anticipatory coarticulation, /k/ has lip rounding in the
                          word "coo". The labialized feature of the vowel is anticipated in
                          the realization of the velar stop, [k^w]. That would be an example
                          of coarticulation. But "biphonemic" of course refers to a
                          sequence of two phonemes. These phonemes may or may not
                          be further analysed into sequences of sounds on the phonetic
                          level, but that is irrelevant here. It is important to remember that
                          phonemes, while the smallest units of speech *phonologically*
                          speaking, are not necessarily "atomic" *phonetically* speaking
                          but may be broken down into smaller segments of sound.
                          Affricates are sequences of homorganic sounds on the phonetic
                          level that make up single units on the phonological level: they
                          are phonemes (no scare quotes). In his _Course in Phonetics_
                          earlier referred to, Ladefoged points out that "From the point of
                          view of a phonologist considering the sound patterns of English,
                          the palato-alveolar affricates are plainly single units" (3rd ed.,
                          63). I don't have the 4th ed. though.

                          Sorry if I missed your point and just reiterated the obvious.

                          /Fredrik Ström
                        • Candon McLean
                          Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn t relevant to phonemes (or something similar to that effect). I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 8 7:59 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ivan and Fredrik both wrote that phonetic analysis isn't relevant to
                            phonemes (or something similar to that effect).

                            I agree. My mistake. Indeed sounds like [tS] are phonemes.

                            The point I was trying to make is that these kind of complex phonemes
                            with coarticulated sounds can't be split, and so if we wanted to test
                            whether Quenya clusters are phonemic or not, we should be able to do
                            so by focusing on the coarticulated properties of these sounds (like
                            affricates, etc).

                            Candon


                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                            http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
                          • anthonyappleyard
                            Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between vowels are known? If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 11 2:03 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Apart from _Aldudenie_, what known instances of Quenya _d_ between
                              vowels are known?

                              If _Aldudenie_ is the only example, perhaps it is a stray mistake by
                              Tolkien and if he had lived longer he would have found and corrected
                              it.

                              [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
                              by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]
                            • Eleder
                              ... The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_ was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, lament , is the #5885 message of
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 12 4:47 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > [It has been suggested many times before that _Aldudenie_, composed
                                > by a Vanyarin elf, is a Vanyarin, not Quenya, title. Carl]

                                The best discussion I can remember about the possibility that *_-dénie_
                                was the Vanyarin cognate of Noldorin _nainie_, "lament", is the #5885
                                message of Elfling, by Ales Bican:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/5885

                                As he said, it's hard to believe that it could be a typo by Tolkien,
                                since the word _Aldudénie_ appears in different manuscripts and
                                texts carefully revised by Tolkien.

                                By the way, I introduce myself in this list, as member of the
                                Lambenor Spanish-speaking mailing-list, and the Team of
                                Languages of the Spanish Tolkien Society.

                                ------
                                Eleder

                                "La fantasía se inocula en tu intelecto cual vacuna contra la sórdida
                                subsistencia, cuando el aguijón de John Ronald Reuel Tolkien se
                                inserta en los patológicos hemisferios cerebrales de todo lector que
                                padezca el acierto de acceder a su terapéutica saga."
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.