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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Miqilis?

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  • Ales Bican
    ... **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather white than snow . We have base NIQI white and derivatives _ninqe_ white , _niqis (ss)_ (_niqi-_
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 28, 2002
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      I wrote:

      > **There is yet another one: _-is_ in _niqilis_ "fine snow" (66L) which
      > is from _is (iss-)_ "light snow" (43R).

      Carl responded:

      > [This analysis of the form does not explain the _-l-_. It seems
      > to me that the form is instead to be analyzed as _niqi-_ 'snow' + the
      > (now familiar to us all!) diminutive ending _-lis_ 'fine'. Carl]

      **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather "white" than "snow".
      We have base NIQI "white" and derivatives _ninqe_ "white", _niqis (ss)_
      (_niqi-_ "white" + _is_ "(light) snow"). As regards the _-l-_, it might
      be a diminutive affix (cf. _katl_ "chuckle" Patrick mentioned) or an
      adjective marker.

      [Actually, the _root_ NIQI means 'white'; but among the derivatives of
      NIQI are many forms in _niqi-_ meaning 'snow'; while 'white' itself is
      _ninqe_. Carl]

      > > [N.B. All forms in the following discussion are from QL unless
      > > otherwise noted.]
      >
      > **Page numbers would be welcome.
      >
      > [But not really necessary when citing (esp. a large number of) forms
      > from the Lexicons, which are arranged alphabetically, with alphabetic
      > cross-references. Carl]

      **Sure, but words would be easier to locate. I had, for instance,
      problems with _Elwenillo_. And I must note, it was *not* an objection
      or complaint.

      [I would myself tend to give the page numbers, so no argument here. But
      I do understand Pat's reason for omitting them from Lexicon references,
      and wouldn't reject a post for not using them in that case. Carl]

      > **'wind's eye' is not at all odd. Czech 'okno' "window" is related
      > to 'oko' "eye". Cf. also Sanskrit 'gavákSa-' literally meaning
      > "bull's eye".
      >
      > [Most English speakers have no knowledge of the origin of "window",
      > since it has no apparent formal relationship to "eye". It is indeed
      > an odd fact, when first learned. Carl]

      **I had not either, until I read Patrick's post. What I meant is that
      it is not odd that words for "window" were connected with words for
      "eye".

      Carl commented my suggested analysis of _eulitse_ and _melitse_:

      > [I see nothing necessarily or even apparently feminine about 'darling'
      > (which is itself in origin a diminutive form, 'little dear', as for
      > _mel(i)-_ + _-(li)tse_); nor about 'lamb'. But both are clearly
      > diminutive.

      **You may be right, but since I am not sure I wrote that these words
      might be analyzed thus and thus. I would not say they are clearly
      diminutive and I thought this was your objection about David Salo's
      attitude toward _Elpino_.

      [But they _are_ diminutive: I mean, 'darling' (< 'dear-ling' =
      'little dear') and 'lamb' = 'little sheep' _are_ diminutives. Carl]

      At any rate, I see something feminine in "darling" and especially in
      _melitse_. I do not know but I would rather imagine a woman as a
      darling than a man, but sure I am a man. : ) Anyway, MELE seems
      to be somewhat connected with feminines, cf. _mella_ "girl", which is
      probably just *"beloved". And there is another thing I overlooked last
      time. There is an adjective _melitsa_ "beloved, favourite". It is
      possible that _melitse_ is derived from this adjective. In that case
      the final _e_ would more likely be a feminine marker than a
      masculine one.

      [I can only say that I more often hear women call men "darling" than
      vice versa. Carl]

      As regards _eulitse_, it is unglossed in QL, so my interpretation was
      necessarily a guess. This may not be your case, of course.

      [I followed your lead on that; I know nothing more than what is in QL.
      Carl]

      > It is not uncommon that diminutive endings are applied to
      > specifically feminine forms; but that does not make the diminutive ending
      > necessarily feminine. While interjecting, I'll also note that it may be
      > that the ending in all these cases is in fact _-litse_ (not _-tse_), with
      > syncope of *_-lilitse_ > _-litse_ in _melitse_ and _eulitse_, and of *_-
      > rilitse_ > _-ritse_in _heritse_. Carl]

      **That is certainly possible. (By the way, the change you mention here
      is normally called haplology, not syncope, if I am not mistaken, but I
      understood what you meant.)

      [Re: haplology: quite right. The term eluded me at the time, for some
      reason. Carl]


      Ales Bican

      --
      Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
      how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
    • Ales Bican
      ... **Well, the whole entry goes like this: NIQI white _ninqe (i)_ white. _niqis (ss)_ snow. _niqissea_ snowy. _niqilis_ fine snow. _niqileninqe_ snow-white.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 3, 2003
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        I wrote:

        > **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather "white" than "snow".
        > We have base NIQI "white" and derivatives _ninqe_ "white", _niqis (ss)_
        > (_niqi-_ "white" + _is_ "(light) snow").

        Carl responded:

        > [Actually, the _root_ NIQI means 'white'; but among the derivatives of
        > NIQI are many forms in _niqi-_ meaning 'snow'; while 'white' itself is
        > _ninqe_. Carl]

        **Well, the whole entry goes like this:
        NIQI white
        _ninqe (i)_ white.
        _niqis (ss)_ snow.
        _niqissea_ snowy.
        _niqilis_ fine snow.
        _niqileninqe_ snow-white.
        _niqetil (d), niqetilde_ snow-cap.
        _niqisya, niqista-_ to snow. [pret. _-stine_ or _-stane_.
        _nikte-_ to whiten, cleanse. [_niqente_.

        As far as I can see the only speculative word is _niqileninqe_ "snow-
        white"; the others can be more or less easily explained as containing
        the element _niq(i)_ meaning "white".

        First of all there is _ninqe_ "white", then _niqis_, presumably _niq(i)
        + is_ "white + snow"; _niqissea_ would be an adjectival derivative
        thereof; _niqisya_ and _niqista_ seem to be verbal derivatives thereof
        (_niqis + ya/ta_). _nikte-_ seems to be _niq + te_, showing the change
        _q_ > _k_ before _t_.

        As regards _niqetil(de)_, although it is translated as "snow-cap", I
        think it is not a literal translation but rather an English idiom
        (though I was not able to find it my dictionary; I found only
        'snow-capped'). _tilde_ is translated as "point" and "tip, peak" in
        QL resp. PME (QL:92R). I believe _niqetil_ means just "white-peak"
        (cf. Tolkien's statement in _Quendi and Eldar_: "_nique_ does not
        refer to snow" (WJ:417), thought this may not be relevant, since the
        underlying base _nique_ (_niku-_) was reinterpreted).

        So except for the dubious _niqilis_ we are left with _niqileninqe_
        "snow-white". I think it is safe to say that the segment _ninqe_ is
        the same as _ninqe_ "white". If the translation "snow-white" is
        (which may not be the case, though) a literal one, then _niqele-_
        would be "snow". In that case it might be just "whiteness", sc.
        "snow", if _-le_ is an abstract suffix.

        This is my view and it may not be the best one. I am eager to see
        yours (Carl's), and for that matter any other else's.

        [My own view is that _niqi-_ does in fact mean 'snow', as a concrete
        noun derived ultimately from, but not sharing precisely the same meaning
        as, the primitive root NIQI 'white' with abstract meaning. This view, in
        my opinion, more succinctly explains the derivative given, and avoid the
        gymnastics required to develop an explanation for such words as
        _niqileniqe_ 'snow-white' and _niqetilde_ 'snow-cap' if one assumes that
        the reflex _niqi-_ must have the same meaning as the root. Carl]

        > **Sure, but words would be easier to locate. I had, for instance,
        > problems with _Elwenillo_. And I must note, it was *not* an objection
        > or complaint.
        >
        > [I would myself tend to give the page numbers, so no argument here. But
        > I do understand Pat's reason for omitting them from Lexicon references,
        > and wouldn't reject a post for not using them in that case. Carl]

        **I understand it, too. As I said, it was not any complaint or
        objection. I think I should have formulated it otherwise, since my aim
        was just to ask for page numbers, since it would ease my searching.
        And I certainly did not want to imply that posts without references
        should be rejected (I am against rejecting, anyway).

        > **You may be right, but since I am not sure I wrote that these words
        > might be analyzed thus and thus. I would not say they are clearly
        > diminutive and I thought this was your objection about David Salo's
        > attitude toward _Elpino_.
        >
        > [But they _are_ diminutive: I mean, 'darling' (< 'dear-ling' =
        > 'little dear') and 'lamb' = 'little sheep' _are_ diminutives. Carl]

        **I see: you meant the English words. We misunderstood. However,
        I would not call 'lamb' a diminutive, just as I would not call "child"
        a diminutive, because it is 'little human'.

        Another problem is that it is _eule_ that means "lamb"; _eulitse_
        would be then "little lamb" if it was a diminutive.

        It must be pointed out that there is a gap is my theory that _eulitse_
        is a feminine form: if it is, why its masculine counterpart was not
        mentioned? One possible answer may be that _eule_ covers both
        "he-lamb" and "lamb in general". Another answer may be that the
        entry EWE is not finished or written hastily. Are there any indications
        of this in Tolkien's manuscript?

        [I'll check this when I get a chance, and let you know. Carl]

        > As regards _eulitse_, it is unglossed in QL, so my interpretation was
        > necessarily a guess. This may not be your case, of course.
        >
        > [I followed your lead on that; I know nothing more than what is in QL.
        > Carl]

        **Ok, though I find it strange that Tolkien did not write anything which
        could shed more light on _eulitse_.


        Ales Bican

        --
        Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
        how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
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