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Miqilis?

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  • Peter <edelberg@get2net.dk>
    Hi, Has anybody ever figured out how to analyse the word _miqilis_ kisses from the poem _Nieninque_ (A Secret Vice). The full sentence is _yar i vilya anta
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 18, 2002
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      Hi,

      Has anybody ever figured out how to analyse the word
      _miqilis_ 'kisses' from the poem _Nieninque_ (A Secret Vice). The
      full sentence is _yar i vilya anta miqilis_ 'to whom the air gives
      kisses'. Evidently it is plural, but what is the singular, and how
      could it be transformed into a verb?

      Regards,
      Peter Edelberg
    • David Kiltz
      On Donnerstag, Dezember 19, 2002, at 02:00 Uhr, Peter ... In addition to assuming that Quenya did have a plural in -s at the time of the poem s composition,
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 19, 2002
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        On Donnerstag, Dezember 19, 2002, at 02:00 Uhr, Peter
        <edelberg@...> wrote:

        > Has anybody ever figured out how to analyse the word
        > _miqilis_ 'kisses' from the poem _Nieninque_ (A Secret Vice).

        In addition to assuming that Quenya did have a plural in -s at the time
        of the poem's composition, one might assume that _miqilis_ stands for
        _miqilisse_. A shorter form _-s_ for the locative _-sse_ is widely
        attested (e.g. entos v. entosse). The same shortening seems to occur in
        abstracts/collectives in _-sse_ (e.g. _veasse, lótesse_) as well. It may
        be seen in, e.g., niquis, niquesse (the latter owing its first "e" to
        association with _quesse_) "frost-pattern" [XI:417].

        So, a more literal translation of _miqilis_ might indeed be "kissing,
        ensemble of kisses". That means, we're dealing with a collective rather
        than a proper plural.

        As far as any rules governing the occurrence of _-s_ v _-sse_ go, one
        might assume that _-s_ is a pausa variant. Thus, it would naturally
        occur at the end of a sentence.

        A verbal root (if used thusly) would be _*miqu-_ with _*miquil(e)_ " a
        kiss" and _*miquilisse_ "kissing".

        David Kiltz
      • pa2rick <pwynne@gvtel.com>
        ... The Qenya Lexicon gives the following entry: MIQI kiss. _miqe (e)_ a kiss. _miqile_ kissing. _miqilitse_ little or tender kiss. _miq-_ to kiss. [_minqe_.
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 21, 2002
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          Peter Edelberg asked:

          > Has anybody ever figured out how to analyse the word
          > _miqilis_ 'kisses' from the poem _Nieninque_ (A Secret Vice).
          > The full sentence is _yar i vilya anta miqilis_ 'to whom the air
          > gives kisses'. Evidently it is plural, but what is the singular,
          > and how could it be transformed into a verb?

          The Qenya Lexicon gives the following entry:

          MIQI kiss.
          _miqe (e)_ a kiss.
          _miqile_ kissing.
          _miqilitse_ little or tender kiss.
          _miq-_ to kiss. [_minqe_.

          _miqilis_ in the 1931 poem is probably a shortened form of
          _miqilitse_ 'little or tender kiss'. With omission of the final _-e_,
          _miqilits-_ would become _miqilis_ -- compare _oaris_
          'mermaid' in QL, in which the final _-s_ is reduced from _-ts_
          in the stem _*oarits-_ (the _ts_ of the stem is retained medially
          in the pl. _Oaritsi_, I:227).

          The diminutive suffix _-litse_ in _miqilitse_ also occurs in QL
          in the form _inwilitse_ 'little fairy', < _inwe_ 'one of the royal
          house of the Eldar'. It is also possible that in _miqilis_ the final
          element has been reinterpreted as a shortened form of _lisse_
          'sweet' (LR:368).

          _miqilis_ is therefore probably _not_ a plural form, despite its
          gloss as 'kisses'. Tolkien clearly used some poetic leeway in
          his translations of the poems in "A Secret Vice" -- for example,
          the line _nu karne vaiya_ in _Oilima Markirya_ must contain
          sg. _karne_ 'red' (given in QL) and sg. _vaiya_ 'Outer Sea or Air'
          (V:397), but the English translation is plural: 'under red skies'.

          As for "transforming" _miqilis_ into a verb, QL gives the verb
          _miq-_ 'to kiss', pa.t. _minqe_. If this verb survived into the
          later corpus, it may have taken the form _*miku-_ 'to kiss',
          _*mique_ 'it kisses', etc., analogous to _niku-_ 'be chill, cold
          (of weather)', _nique_ 'it is cold, freezes' (XI:417). On the other
          hand, _Nieninque_ employs the equally serviceable idiom
          of the verb _anta_ 'to give' followed by the noun 'kiss'. This
          same idiom occurs in Goldogrin -- the Gnomish Grammar
          cites _ôni cailthi_ 'he pressed a kiss, he kissed' (PE11:11),
          with _antha-_ 'give' (pa.t. _ôni_) and noun _cailthi_ 'kiss'.

          -- Patrick Wynne
        • Ales Bican
          [Cross-posted to elfling and lambengolmor. -- ab] ... **While this is a very likely interpretation of _miqilis_ (and I thought about it myself), it is possible
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 22, 2002
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            [Cross-posted to elfling and lambengolmor. -- ab]

            "pa2rick " wrote:

            > _miqilis_ in the 1931 poem is probably a shortened form of
            > _miqilitse_ 'little or tender kiss'. With omission of the final _-e_,
            > _miqilits-_ would become _miqilis_ -- compare _oaris_
            > 'mermaid' in QL, in which the final _-s_ is reduced from _-ts_
            > in the stem _*oarits-_ (the _ts_ of the stem is retained medially
            > in the pl. _Oaritsi_, I:227).
            >
            > The diminutive suffix _-litse_ in _miqilitse_ also occurs in QL
            > in the form _inwilitse_ 'little fairy', < _inwe_ 'one of the royal
            > house of the Eldar'. It is also possible that in _miqilis_ the final
            > element has been reinterpreted as a shortened form of _lisse_
            > 'sweet' (LR:368).

            **While this is a very likely interpretation of _miqilis_ (and I thought
            about it myself), it is possible that the segment _-lis_ is not a short
            variant of the (diminutive) suffix _-litse_, but it is the same _-lis_
            that appears in a number of Qenya words in QL. Here they are:

            _arqilis_ "desert", _arqa_ "arid, parched, dry" (32L)
            _avestalis_ "January", _avesta_ "opening, beginning, overture" (29L)
            _indolis_ "domicile", _indo_ "house" (43L)
            _Inwilis_ "Faëry", _inwe_ "1 of the royal house of the _Eldar_" (42R)
            _lattulis_ "window" (51R), cf. _latsina_ "open, level, broad" (50R)
            _loqilis_ "question" (56L, deleted)
            _maksilis_ "lordship", _maksi-_ "hold, grip, power, possession" (57R)
            _niqilis_ "fine snow", NIQI "white" (66L)
            _oinalis_ "ointment", OYO "salve, rub, oil" (71R)
            _qindelis_ "a nun", _qinde_ "womanliness, femininity" (77L, R)
            _sintilis_ "a sparkling as of crystal", _sint_ (ty) "a gleam, spark,
            glister, drop of dew, etc." (85L)
            _turinqilis_ "princess" (95L)

            It seems to be some kind of abstract suffix. Hence if we have _miqe_
            "a kiss" and _miq-_ "to kiss" (61R), than _miqilis_ might mean
            "kissing".


            Ales Bican

            --
            Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
            how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
          • pa2rick <pwynne@gvtel.com>
            ... This is certainly a possible interpretation of _miqilis_. However, your assumption that _all_ of the forms ending in _-lis_ in QL contain the same
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 23, 2002
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              Ales Bican wrote, responding to my interpretation of _miqilis_:

              > **While this is a very likely interpretation of _miqilis_ (and I
              > thought about it myself), it is possible that the segment _-lis_
              > is not a short variant of the (diminutive) suffix _-litse_, but it
              > is the same _-lis_ that appears in a number of Qenya
              > words in QL.

              After giving a list of these forms in _-lis_, Ales adds:

              > It seems to be some kind of abstract suffix. Hence if we have
              > _miqe_ "a kiss" and _miq-_ "to kiss" (61R), than _miqilis_
              > might mean "kissing".

              This is certainly a possible interpretation of _miqilis_. However,
              your assumption that _all_ of the forms ending in _-lis_ in QL
              contain "the same _-lis_", which is "some kind of abstract
              suffix", is far too general. In the list you provided, there appear to
              be at least _three_ different but homophonous suffixes _-lis_,
              each with a distinct application and probably a distinct
              etymology.

              [N.B. All forms in the following discussion are from QL unless
              otherwise noted.]

              Certainly in _maksilis (st)_ 'lordship', from noun-stem _maksi-_
              'hold, grip, power, possession', _-lis_ appears to be an abstract
              suffix; _sintilis (ss)_ 'a sparkling as of crystal', from _sinty-_
              'sparkle' might be another instance (though note the difference
              in the stem endings: _st_ vs. _ss_). The ending _-s_, _-sse_ is
              well-attested as an abstract noun ending in QL, which gives for
              example _meles (ss)_, _melesse_ 'love' (< _mel-_ 'to love'),
              and _piqis_, _piqisse_ 'grief' (< PIQI). A suffix _-lis_, _-lisse_
              may have been generalized from instances in which _-s_,
              _-sse_ was added to nouns ending in _-le_ -- for example,
              _siqilisse_ 'lamentation' < _siqile_ 'sighing, lament' < _siqi-_
              'sigh'.

              There also appears to be a suffix _-lis_ meaning 'land, place'.
              This appears in _arqilis_ 'desert' (*'arid land' < _arqa_ 'arid,
              parched, dry'), _Inwilis_ 'Faëry' (*'Inwir-land' < _inwe_ 'one of
              the royal house of the Eldar'), _indolis_ 'domicile' (*'house-
              place', i.e. *'place where one resides', < _indo_ 'house').
              Perhaps _lattulis_ 'window' belongs with this group too,
              meaning lit. *'shutter-place' < _lat (latt-)_ 'flap, small hinged
              door, lid' (or, if _lattu-_ is a dual, then *'place with a pair of
              shutters'). If this seems an odd etymology for 'window', it is
              hardly any odder than the etymology of English _window_
              itself, which originally meant 'wind's eye'! In these instances,
              the suffix _-lis_ might derive from the multiplicative root LI, ILI
              'many', whence _lie_ 'people, folk' -- note that even in QL, the
              word _nóre_ means both 'family' and 'country, nation'.

              Finally, there are instances in which _-lis_ appears to be a
              diminutive. The clearest example is _turinqilis_ 'princess',
              probably lit. *'little queen' < _turinqi_ 'queen'. Another possible
              example is _qindelis_ 'a nun', in which the diminutive ending
              acts as a particularizing or singular ending when added to the
              collective noun _qinde_ 'women as a whole'. In these forms
              (as perhaps in _miqilis_), the ending _-lis_ might be a
              reduction of _-litse_. The suffix _-litse_ itself appears to contain
              two distinct elements, the first of which is diminutive _-l_, _-il_,
              seen in forms such as _katl_, _kakil_ 'chuckle' (i.e. *'a little
              laugh' < _kaka-_ 'laugh'), _lipil_ 'a tiny glass' (< LIPI),
              _Elwenillo_ 'Littleheart' (< _elwen_ 'heart'), and probably
              _turillo_ 'prince' (*'little king') and _turille_ 'princess' (*'little
              queen'). The element _-tse_ apparently serves as a diminutive
              or hypocoristic in such forms as _melitse_ 'darling' (< _mel-_
              'to love'), _eulitse_ (< _eule_ 'lamb'), and _heritse_ term
              applied to "an Inwe" (< _heri_ 'Lady').

              -- Patrick Wynne
            • Ales Bican
              ... **I am aware of this. I should have made myself more clear, because I did not mean to imply that the suffix _-lis_ was always the same suffix in all those
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 27, 2002
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                I wrote:

                > > It seems to be some kind of abstract suffix. Hence if we have
                > > _miqe_ "a kiss" and _miq-_ "to kiss" (61R), than _miqilis_
                > > might mean "kissing".

                Patrick responded:

                > This is certainly a possible interpretation of _miqilis_. However,
                > your assumption that _all_ of the forms ending in _-lis_ in QL
                > contain "the same _-lis_", which is "some kind of abstract
                > suffix", is far too general.

                **I am aware of this. I should have made myself more clear, because
                I did not mean to imply that the suffix _-lis_ was always the same
                suffix in all those words.

                The message I sent to the lambengolmor list was the second version of
                my response. In the first version, which was meant to be sent to
                Elfling (that is why I also sent my reply to Elfling in the end), I
                suggested the possible connection of _miqilis_ with _miqilitse_ and
                discussed the suffix _-lis_. Since Patrick was quicker than me, I
                restricted the second version only on the suffix _-lis_. I thought
                it would be convenient to cite all instances of words ending in
                _-lis_.

                Since I saw that we may deal with several homophonous suffixes, I
                just wrote that it is some kind of abstract suffix.

                > In the list you provided, there appear to
                > be at least _three_ different but homophonous suffixes _-lis_,
                > each with a distinct application and probably a distinct
                > etymology.

                **There is yet another one: _-is_ in _niqilis_ "fine snow" (66L) which
                is from _is (iss-)_ "light snow" (43R).

                [This analysis of the form does not explain the _-l-_. It seems
                to me that the form is instead to be analyzed as _niqi-_ 'snow' + the
                (now familiar to us all!) diminutive ending _-lis_ 'fine'. Carl]

                > [N.B. All forms in the following discussion are from QL unless
                > otherwise noted.]

                **Page numbers would be welcome.

                [But not really necessary when citing (esp. a large number of) forms
                from the Lexicons, which are arranged alphabetically, with alphabetic
                cross-references. Carl]

                > Certainly in _maksilis (st)_ 'lordship', from noun-stem _maksi-_
                > 'hold, grip, power, possession', _-lis_ appears to be an abstract
                > suffix; _sintilis (ss)_ 'a sparkling as of crystal', from _sinty-_
                > 'sparkle' might be another instance (though note the difference
                > in the stem endings: _st_ vs. _ss_). The ending _-s_, _-sse_ is
                > well-attested as an abstract noun ending in QL, which gives for
                > example _meles (ss)_, _melesse_ 'love' (< _mel-_ 'to love'),
                > and _piqis_, _piqisse_ 'grief' (< PIQI).

                **We may deal with at least three abstract suffixes: _-sse_, _-sta_
                and _-ste_. The second is not very common: _piqesta_ "bitterness"
                (74L). Perhaps the same _-sta_ is found in _qindesta_ "convent"
                (77R), perhaps meaning something like "a collection/group of women/
                nuns" (see below). As regards _-ste_: _rauste_ "hunting, preying" from
                RAWA/RAVA *"run, chase" (79L, R); _seste_ "similarity" from _se_
                "as, like"; _teluste_ "extremity" from _telu_ "end, close; to finish,
                to end" (91L). All three suffixes seem to have a short variant _-s_.

                > There also appears to be a suffix _-lis_ meaning 'land, place'.
                > This appears in _arqilis_ 'desert' (*'arid land' < _arqa_ 'arid,
                > parched, dry'), _Inwilis_ 'Faëry' (*'Inwir-land' < _inwe_ 'one of
                > the royal house of the Eldar'), _indolis_ 'domicile' (*'house-
                > place', i.e. *'place where one resides', < _indo_ 'house').
                > Perhaps _lattulis_ 'window' belongs with this group too,
                > meaning lit. *'shutter-place' < _lat (latt-)_ 'flap, small hinged
                > door, lid' (or, if _lattu-_ is a dual, then *'place with a pair of
                > shutters').

                **This is certainly possible. However, I am not quite sure about
                these ones. I think it might be possible that _-lis_ in these cases
                is still the same abstract _-lis_, though the final derivatives are
                not abstracts any longer.

                _arqilis_ might be *"dryness, aridness"; it is possible that this
                abstract was used for "desert" (Czech 'poust' "desert", related to adj.
                'pusty' "waste, desert", is in fact "waste-ness, desert-ness").
                The same with _Inwilis_: it might be *"Inwe-ness", hence "Faëry".
                In case of _lattulis_, since it is related words are _lá_ "open
                space", _láta-_ "stread, extend" and _latsina_ "open, level, broad"
                (50R), it might be "open-ness, spread-ness". I like, however, the
                idea of the dual, though it does not explain homonym _lattin_ (51R).

                > If this seems an odd etymology for 'window', it is
                > hardly any odder than the etymology of English _window_
                > itself, which originally meant 'wind's eye'!

                **'wind's eye' is not at all odd. Czech 'okno' "window" is related
                to 'oko' "eye". Cf. also Sanskrit 'gavákSa-' literally meaning
                "bull's eye".

                [Most English speakers have no knowledge of the origin of "window",
                since it has no apparent formal relationship to "eye". It is indeed
                an odd fact, when first learned. Carl]

                > Finally, there are instances in which _-lis_ appears to be a
                > diminutive. The clearest example is _turinqilis_ 'princess',
                > probably lit. *'little queen' < _turinqi_ 'queen'. Another possible
                > example is _qindelis_ 'a nun', in which the diminutive ending
                > acts as a particularizing or singular ending when added to the
                > collective noun _qinde_ 'women as a whole'.

                **While I agree with the interpretation of _turinqilis_, I am not
                quite sure about _qindelis_. First of all there is the fact you
                mention, sc. that _qinde_ is a collective while _qindelis_ is just
                one nun. However, this would not such a big problem -- more problematic
                is that _qinde_ by itself probably means "nun(s)", cf. _i.aira qinde_
                "nuns" (lit. *"holy women") and _qindesta_ "convent" (*"group
                of nuns"?; 77R). Another question is why it was not derived directly
                from _qin_ "woman, female".

                > In these forms
                > (as perhaps in _miqilis_), the ending _-lis_ might be a
                > reduction of _-litse_. The suffix _-litse_ itself appears to contain
                > two distinct elements, the first of which is diminutive _-l_, _-il_,
                > seen in forms such as _katl_, _kakil_ 'chuckle' (i.e. *'a little
                > laugh' < _kaka-_ 'laugh'), _lipil_ 'a tiny glass' (< LIPI),
                > _Elwenillo_ 'Littleheart' (< _elwen_ 'heart'), and probably
                > _turillo_ 'prince' (*'little king') and _turille_ 'princess' (*'little
                > queen').

                **Seen also in _qimelle_ "little woman" (77L) and comparable to _-le_
                in _nen-le_ "brook" (Etym s.v. NEN).

                > The element _-tse_ apparently serves as a diminutive
                > or hypocoristic in such forms as _melitse_ 'darling' (< _mel-_
                > 'to love'), _eulitse_ (< _eule_ 'lamb'), and _heritse_ term
                > applied to "an Inwe" (< _heri_ 'Lady').

                **While it is possible that _-tse_ serves as a diminutive or
                hypocoristic suffix, I do not think it is the case in examples cited.
                _-tse_ in _melitse_, _heritse_ and probably even in _eulitse_ is,
                in my opinion, a feminine suffix.

                A short variant of this suffix would be seen in _aris, arits-_
                "daughter, maid", derived from _ar_ "child" (32L). Other instances
                of this may be _akairis_ "bride" (46L) and perhaps _kargaris_ "spider"
                ("she-spider"?; 45L).

                A variant of this suffix is apparently _-ss(e)_, because _akairiss-_
                alternates with _akairits-_. Another, similar, suffix is _-ste_, seen in
                _Teleste_ "she little elf" (91L).

                Hence _melitse_ might be "she-darling", _eulitse_ "she-lamb" and
                in case of _heritse_ feminineness would be multiplied (though here
                _-tse_ is most likely to be a hypocoristic suffix).

                Ales Bican

                [I see nothing necessarily or even apparently feminine about 'darling'
                (which is itself in origin a diminutive form, 'little dear', as for
                _mel(i)-_ + _-(li)tse_); nor about 'lamb'. But both are clearly
                diminutive. It is not uncommon that diminutive endings are applied to
                specifically feminine forms; but that does not make the diminutive ending
                necessarily feminine. While interjecting, I'll also note that it may be
                that the ending in all these cases is in fact _-litse_ (not _-tse_), with
                syncope of *_-lilitse_ > _-litse_ in _melitse_ and _eulitse_, and of *_-
                rilitse_ > _-ritse_in _heritse_. Carl]

                --
                Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
                how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
              • Ales Bican
                ... **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather white than snow . We have base NIQI white and derivatives _ninqe_ white , _niqis (ss)_ (_niqi-_
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 28, 2002
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                  I wrote:

                  > **There is yet another one: _-is_ in _niqilis_ "fine snow" (66L) which
                  > is from _is (iss-)_ "light snow" (43R).

                  Carl responded:

                  > [This analysis of the form does not explain the _-l-_. It seems
                  > to me that the form is instead to be analyzed as _niqi-_ 'snow' + the
                  > (now familiar to us all!) diminutive ending _-lis_ 'fine'. Carl]

                  **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather "white" than "snow".
                  We have base NIQI "white" and derivatives _ninqe_ "white", _niqis (ss)_
                  (_niqi-_ "white" + _is_ "(light) snow"). As regards the _-l-_, it might
                  be a diminutive affix (cf. _katl_ "chuckle" Patrick mentioned) or an
                  adjective marker.

                  [Actually, the _root_ NIQI means 'white'; but among the derivatives of
                  NIQI are many forms in _niqi-_ meaning 'snow'; while 'white' itself is
                  _ninqe_. Carl]

                  > > [N.B. All forms in the following discussion are from QL unless
                  > > otherwise noted.]
                  >
                  > **Page numbers would be welcome.
                  >
                  > [But not really necessary when citing (esp. a large number of) forms
                  > from the Lexicons, which are arranged alphabetically, with alphabetic
                  > cross-references. Carl]

                  **Sure, but words would be easier to locate. I had, for instance,
                  problems with _Elwenillo_. And I must note, it was *not* an objection
                  or complaint.

                  [I would myself tend to give the page numbers, so no argument here. But
                  I do understand Pat's reason for omitting them from Lexicon references,
                  and wouldn't reject a post for not using them in that case. Carl]

                  > **'wind's eye' is not at all odd. Czech 'okno' "window" is related
                  > to 'oko' "eye". Cf. also Sanskrit 'gavákSa-' literally meaning
                  > "bull's eye".
                  >
                  > [Most English speakers have no knowledge of the origin of "window",
                  > since it has no apparent formal relationship to "eye". It is indeed
                  > an odd fact, when first learned. Carl]

                  **I had not either, until I read Patrick's post. What I meant is that
                  it is not odd that words for "window" were connected with words for
                  "eye".

                  Carl commented my suggested analysis of _eulitse_ and _melitse_:

                  > [I see nothing necessarily or even apparently feminine about 'darling'
                  > (which is itself in origin a diminutive form, 'little dear', as for
                  > _mel(i)-_ + _-(li)tse_); nor about 'lamb'. But both are clearly
                  > diminutive.

                  **You may be right, but since I am not sure I wrote that these words
                  might be analyzed thus and thus. I would not say they are clearly
                  diminutive and I thought this was your objection about David Salo's
                  attitude toward _Elpino_.

                  [But they _are_ diminutive: I mean, 'darling' (< 'dear-ling' =
                  'little dear') and 'lamb' = 'little sheep' _are_ diminutives. Carl]

                  At any rate, I see something feminine in "darling" and especially in
                  _melitse_. I do not know but I would rather imagine a woman as a
                  darling than a man, but sure I am a man. : ) Anyway, MELE seems
                  to be somewhat connected with feminines, cf. _mella_ "girl", which is
                  probably just *"beloved". And there is another thing I overlooked last
                  time. There is an adjective _melitsa_ "beloved, favourite". It is
                  possible that _melitse_ is derived from this adjective. In that case
                  the final _e_ would more likely be a feminine marker than a
                  masculine one.

                  [I can only say that I more often hear women call men "darling" than
                  vice versa. Carl]

                  As regards _eulitse_, it is unglossed in QL, so my interpretation was
                  necessarily a guess. This may not be your case, of course.

                  [I followed your lead on that; I know nothing more than what is in QL.
                  Carl]

                  > It is not uncommon that diminutive endings are applied to
                  > specifically feminine forms; but that does not make the diminutive ending
                  > necessarily feminine. While interjecting, I'll also note that it may be
                  > that the ending in all these cases is in fact _-litse_ (not _-tse_), with
                  > syncope of *_-lilitse_ > _-litse_ in _melitse_ and _eulitse_, and of *_-
                  > rilitse_ > _-ritse_in _heritse_. Carl]

                  **That is certainly possible. (By the way, the change you mention here
                  is normally called haplology, not syncope, if I am not mistaken, but I
                  understood what you meant.)

                  [Re: haplology: quite right. The term eluded me at the time, for some
                  reason. Carl]


                  Ales Bican

                  --
                  Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
                  how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
                • Ales Bican
                  ... **Well, the whole entry goes like this: NIQI white _ninqe (i)_ white. _niqis (ss)_ snow. _niqissea_ snowy. _niqilis_ fine snow. _niqileninqe_ snow-white.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 3, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I wrote:

                    > **However, the problem is that _niqi-_ is rather "white" than "snow".
                    > We have base NIQI "white" and derivatives _ninqe_ "white", _niqis (ss)_
                    > (_niqi-_ "white" + _is_ "(light) snow").

                    Carl responded:

                    > [Actually, the _root_ NIQI means 'white'; but among the derivatives of
                    > NIQI are many forms in _niqi-_ meaning 'snow'; while 'white' itself is
                    > _ninqe_. Carl]

                    **Well, the whole entry goes like this:
                    NIQI white
                    _ninqe (i)_ white.
                    _niqis (ss)_ snow.
                    _niqissea_ snowy.
                    _niqilis_ fine snow.
                    _niqileninqe_ snow-white.
                    _niqetil (d), niqetilde_ snow-cap.
                    _niqisya, niqista-_ to snow. [pret. _-stine_ or _-stane_.
                    _nikte-_ to whiten, cleanse. [_niqente_.

                    As far as I can see the only speculative word is _niqileninqe_ "snow-
                    white"; the others can be more or less easily explained as containing
                    the element _niq(i)_ meaning "white".

                    First of all there is _ninqe_ "white", then _niqis_, presumably _niq(i)
                    + is_ "white + snow"; _niqissea_ would be an adjectival derivative
                    thereof; _niqisya_ and _niqista_ seem to be verbal derivatives thereof
                    (_niqis + ya/ta_). _nikte-_ seems to be _niq + te_, showing the change
                    _q_ > _k_ before _t_.

                    As regards _niqetil(de)_, although it is translated as "snow-cap", I
                    think it is not a literal translation but rather an English idiom
                    (though I was not able to find it my dictionary; I found only
                    'snow-capped'). _tilde_ is translated as "point" and "tip, peak" in
                    QL resp. PME (QL:92R). I believe _niqetil_ means just "white-peak"
                    (cf. Tolkien's statement in _Quendi and Eldar_: "_nique_ does not
                    refer to snow" (WJ:417), thought this may not be relevant, since the
                    underlying base _nique_ (_niku-_) was reinterpreted).

                    So except for the dubious _niqilis_ we are left with _niqileninqe_
                    "snow-white". I think it is safe to say that the segment _ninqe_ is
                    the same as _ninqe_ "white". If the translation "snow-white" is
                    (which may not be the case, though) a literal one, then _niqele-_
                    would be "snow". In that case it might be just "whiteness", sc.
                    "snow", if _-le_ is an abstract suffix.

                    This is my view and it may not be the best one. I am eager to see
                    yours (Carl's), and for that matter any other else's.

                    [My own view is that _niqi-_ does in fact mean 'snow', as a concrete
                    noun derived ultimately from, but not sharing precisely the same meaning
                    as, the primitive root NIQI 'white' with abstract meaning. This view, in
                    my opinion, more succinctly explains the derivative given, and avoid the
                    gymnastics required to develop an explanation for such words as
                    _niqileniqe_ 'snow-white' and _niqetilde_ 'snow-cap' if one assumes that
                    the reflex _niqi-_ must have the same meaning as the root. Carl]

                    > **Sure, but words would be easier to locate. I had, for instance,
                    > problems with _Elwenillo_. And I must note, it was *not* an objection
                    > or complaint.
                    >
                    > [I would myself tend to give the page numbers, so no argument here. But
                    > I do understand Pat's reason for omitting them from Lexicon references,
                    > and wouldn't reject a post for not using them in that case. Carl]

                    **I understand it, too. As I said, it was not any complaint or
                    objection. I think I should have formulated it otherwise, since my aim
                    was just to ask for page numbers, since it would ease my searching.
                    And I certainly did not want to imply that posts without references
                    should be rejected (I am against rejecting, anyway).

                    > **You may be right, but since I am not sure I wrote that these words
                    > might be analyzed thus and thus. I would not say they are clearly
                    > diminutive and I thought this was your objection about David Salo's
                    > attitude toward _Elpino_.
                    >
                    > [But they _are_ diminutive: I mean, 'darling' (< 'dear-ling' =
                    > 'little dear') and 'lamb' = 'little sheep' _are_ diminutives. Carl]

                    **I see: you meant the English words. We misunderstood. However,
                    I would not call 'lamb' a diminutive, just as I would not call "child"
                    a diminutive, because it is 'little human'.

                    Another problem is that it is _eule_ that means "lamb"; _eulitse_
                    would be then "little lamb" if it was a diminutive.

                    It must be pointed out that there is a gap is my theory that _eulitse_
                    is a feminine form: if it is, why its masculine counterpart was not
                    mentioned? One possible answer may be that _eule_ covers both
                    "he-lamb" and "lamb in general". Another answer may be that the
                    entry EWE is not finished or written hastily. Are there any indications
                    of this in Tolkien's manuscript?

                    [I'll check this when I get a chance, and let you know. Carl]

                    > As regards _eulitse_, it is unglossed in QL, so my interpretation was
                    > necessarily a guess. This may not be your case, of course.
                    >
                    > [I followed your lead on that; I know nothing more than what is in QL.
                    > Carl]

                    **Ok, though I find it strange that Tolkien did not write anything which
                    could shed more light on _eulitse_.


                    Ales Bican

                    --
                    Words are useless, especially sentences, they don't stand for anything,
                    how could they explain how I feel? (Madonna, _Bedtime Story_)
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