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_(o)losse_

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  • Petri Tikka
    Reading Tolkien s poem Ent and the Ent-wife in LR:466, I discovered a very interesting matter. Treebeard had said before he started singing to Merry and
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 31, 2002
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      Reading Tolkien's poem "Ent and the Ent-wife" in LR:466, I discovered a very
      interesting matter. Treebeard had said before he started singing to Merry
      and Pippin that the song was originally Elvish. It was probably Quenya,
      since Treebeard most frequently used that tongue, e.g in "Treebeard's song"
      (LR:458).

      Now in in the second line of the second verse the ent-wife utters: "When
      blossom like a shining snow...". The entry LOT(H) (V:370) of the
      "Etymologies" mentions that _losse_ 'blossom' was "only used of white
      blossom" because of its association with _olosse_ 'snow'. The parallel is
      very similar to the poem.

      Could the original have gone something like *_Olosse íre losse ve_ or
      *_Olosse íre sílala_ (cf. _íre_ 'when' V:72, _ve_ 'as, like' R:66, _sílala_
      'shining' MC:214)? The Westron version would be a poetic paraphrase.

      Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
      kari.j.tikka@...
      http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
    • Hans Georg Lundahl
      Petri Tikka wrote: Could the original have gone something like *_Olosse íre losse ve_ or *_Olosse íre sílala_ (cf. _íre_ when
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 3, 2002
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        Petri Tikka <kari.j.tikka@...> wrote:

        "Could the original have gone something like *_Olosse íre losse ve_ or
        *_Olosse íre sílala_ (cf. _íre_ 'when' V:72, _ve_ 'as, like' R:66,
        _sílala_'shining' MC:214)? The Westron version would be a poetic
        paraphrase."

        _Olosse íre losse ve_

        metre: sSsSsSss (s==unaccented syllable, S=¬cented syllable)

        _Olosse íre sílala_

        metre: sSsSsSss

        This presupposes that there are no elisions in Quenya poems, doesn't
        it? Perhaps there aren't. Just checking and asking.

        [-- Hans Georg Lundahl]



        [A reminder to our members to please sign your posts. Proudly. CFH]
      • David Kiltz
        On Dienstag, Dezember 3, 2002, at 03:55 Uhr, Hans Georg Lundahl wrote: [Quoting of nearly the whole of the original post deleted by the moderator. DO NOT DO
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 3, 2002
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          On Dienstag, Dezember 3, 2002, at 03:55 Uhr, Hans Georg Lundahl wrote:

          [Quoting of nearly the whole of the original post deleted by the
          moderator. DO NOT DO THIS! CFH]

          > This presupposes that there are no elisions in Quenya poems, doesn't
          > it? Perhaps there aren't. Just checking and asking.
          >
          > [-- Hans Georg Lundahl]

          Elisions can be found e.g. in V:72 "...kár(e) eldain..." or "...ír(e)
          ilqa...", the elision being noted by a dot underneath the respective
          vowel. Long vowels seem to block it. Monosyllabics are seemingly not
          affected and do not affect.

          David Kiltz
        • Hans Georg Lundahl
          David Kiltz wrote: Elisions can be found e.g. in V:72 ...kár(e) eldain... or ...ír(e) ilqa... , the elision being noted by a dot
          Message 4 of 4 , Dec 4, 2002
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            David Kiltz <dkiltz@...> wrote:

            "Elisions can be found e.g. in V:72 "...kár(e) eldain..." or "...ír(e)
            ilqa...", the elision being noted by a dot underneath the respective
            vowel. Long vowels seem to block it. Monosyllabics are seemingly not
            affected and do not affect."


            Which would give us:

            _Oloss'íre losse ve_ sSSsSss/sSssSss/ssSsSss

            _Oloss'íre sílala_ sSSsSss/sSssSss/ssSsSss

            But that was not the rhythm or metre of the "translation", was it?

            Hans Georg Lundahl


            [In general, elision is not mandatory. Even if we suppose that the
            elisions you propose would in fact occur in normal speech, there is
            no reason to think they could not be avoided in poetry for metrical
            purposes. CFH]
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