Moderation: Quoting (was Re: The adjectival case and number agreement)
- This is another reminder to be judicious when quoting a post to which
you are responding. Please keep quoting to the minimum necessary to
establish the context for a reply, or portion of a reply. Paraphrase
where possible, or even simply refer to the message with a link to the
message in the Lambengolmor archives:
In the message that sparked this reminder:
the lengthy opening quote (representing nearly the whole of the
original message!) could have been eliminated entirely and replaced
with the words:
"In his post of Sep. 28, Emanuele Vicentini
examples showing both the presence and lack of number agreement in the
adjectival case in Quenya."
The URL could even have been left out, if necessary, with no loss of
Please, folks, take the time to keep this list reader friendly.
- --- In lambengolmor@y..., Tchitrec@a... wrote:
> Consequently the -va ending slowlyActually, that would contradict JRRT's words (XI:407) "Similarly with
> came to be considered as a case suffix, a change shown by the fact that
> Quenya speakers introduced a singular/plural distinction : _Eldava_ vs.
> _Eldaiva_ (XI:407).
-va; but this was and remained an adjective, and had the plural form
-ve in plural attribution". According to that, the adjectival
character did not change later.
JRRT usually was reluctant to change words he had written, especially
those published already, when he could re-interpret them. Remember the
name _Ungoliante_ or _Ungweliante: in Etymologies, it's derived from
UÑG- (V:443) "gloom, shadow" and SLIG- (V:431) "spider, spider's web,
cobweb". Among the derivations of the latter root, there is _líne_,
and some may wonder whether it could be used for the WWW... Don't even
dream! If you look at the names of the tengwar in Quenya, you'll find
the name of tengwa 8, _ungwe_ "spider's web" (LR:1096).
Could he re-interpret the sentence to be close enough to his (not
literal) translation and circumvent the problem with agreement? That
would be easy, in fact. Remember that _miruvóre_ is not exactly mead,
but the drink of the Valar, "nectar". So _miruvóreva_ (sg.) would be
an attribute, "nectarous". Mead is a beverage made of honey, and
that's the gloss you find in the entry LIS- in Etymologies (V:411).
_lisse_ could be "mead", and we have "nectarous mead", close enough to
"sweet mead" in the translation. The words for the beverage would be
simply in apposition with _yuldar_, draughts, without any genitive
here ("swift draughts of the sweet mead" in the translation, LR:368).
That's not possible in English or some other languages, but it may be
possible in Quenya. It's costumary in German, where you say "ein
Schluck Wein" (a draught of wine) or "ein Glass Bier" (a glass of
beer), without any copula or case inflection.
Necessary warning: that's just to show that a later re-interpretation
would be possible. There is no doubt that _lisse_ meant "sweet" when
JRRT wrote the poem, there's such a root LISI- meaning sweetness (and
grace) already in QL (cf. VT43:29). But at that time, _-va_ had very
likely another meaning than in Quendi and Eldar! And I'm not sure
about _-ie_ being seen as a plural of _-ea_, at that time, or
agreement in numbers...