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Moderation: Quoting (was Re: The adjectival case and number agreement)

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    This is another reminder to be judicious when quoting a post to which you are responding. Please keep quoting to the minimum necessary to establish the context
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 6, 2002
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      This is another reminder to be judicious when quoting a post to which
      you are responding. Please keep quoting to the minimum necessary to
      establish the context for a reply, or portion of a reply. Paraphrase
      where possible, or even simply refer to the message with a link to the
      message in the Lambengolmor archives:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor

      In the message that sparked this reminder:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/274

      the lengthy opening quote (representing nearly the whole of the
      original message!) could have been eliminated entirely and replaced
      with the words:

      "In his post of Sep. 28, Emanuele Vicentini
      (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/251) listed
      examples showing both the presence and lack of number agreement in the
      adjectival case in Quenya."

      The URL could even have been left out, if necessary, with no loss of
      relevant context.

      Please, folks, take the time to keep this list reader friendly.

      Thanks
    • Hans
      ... Actually, that would contradict JRRT s words (XI:407) Similarly with -va; but this was and remained an adjective, and had the plural form -ve in plural
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 6, 2002
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        --- In lambengolmor@y..., Tchitrec@a... wrote:

        > Consequently the -va ending slowly
        > came to be considered as a case suffix, a change shown by the fact that
        > Quenya speakers introduced a singular/plural distinction : _Eldava_ vs.
        > _Eldaiva_ (XI:407).

        Actually, that would contradict JRRT's words (XI:407) "Similarly with
        -va; but this was and remained an adjective, and had the plural form
        -ve in plural attribution". According to that, the adjectival
        character did not change later.

        JRRT usually was reluctant to change words he had written, especially
        those published already, when he could re-interpret them. Remember the
        name _Ungoliante_ or _Ungweliante: in Etymologies, it's derived from
        UÑG- (V:443) "gloom, shadow" and SLIG- (V:431) "spider, spider's web,
        cobweb". Among the derivations of the latter root, there is _líne_,
        and some may wonder whether it could be used for the WWW... Don't even
        dream! If you look at the names of the tengwar in Quenya, you'll find
        the name of tengwa 8, _ungwe_ "spider's web" (LR:1096).

        Could he re-interpret the sentence to be close enough to his (not
        literal) translation and circumvent the problem with agreement? That
        would be easy, in fact. Remember that _miruvóre_ is not exactly mead,
        but the drink of the Valar, "nectar". So _miruvóreva_ (sg.) would be
        an attribute, "nectarous". Mead is a beverage made of honey, and
        that's the gloss you find in the entry LIS- in Etymologies (V:411).
        _lisse_ could be "mead", and we have "nectarous mead", close enough to
        "sweet mead" in the translation. The words for the beverage would be
        simply in apposition with _yuldar_, draughts, without any genitive
        here ("swift draughts of the sweet mead" in the translation, LR:368).
        That's not possible in English or some other languages, but it may be
        possible in Quenya. It's costumary in German, where you say "ein
        Schluck Wein" (a draught of wine) or "ein Glass Bier" (a glass of
        beer), without any copula or case inflection.

        Necessary warning: that's just to show that a later re-interpretation
        would be possible. There is no doubt that _lisse_ meant "sweet" when
        JRRT wrote the poem, there's such a root LISI- meaning sweetness (and
        grace) already in QL (cf. VT43:29). But at that time, _-va_ had very
        likely another meaning than in Quendi and Eldar! And I'm not sure
        about _-ie_ being seen as a plural of _-ea_, at that time, or
        agreement in numbers...

        Hans
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