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Numerals as Adjectives in Sindarin

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... No, there is actually evidence against that in _Emyn Arnen_ (LR:734), which is of unknown meaning, but presumably * Hills of Royal Water . _Arnen_ has a
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 4, 2002
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      --- In lambengolmor@y..., David Kiltz <dkiltz@g...> wrote:

      > The name of _Lebennin_ might give a clue to how Sindarin works in this
      > respect. That is, if the entry NEN- in V:376 was still valid at the
      > time of the creation of that name, _nin_ should be plural here.
      > However, it is also conceivable that the Sindarin for "water" wasn't
      > _nen_, pl. _nîn_ anymore but rather _nín_, pl _nîn_. Any evidence for
      > that ?
      >
      > David Kiltz

      No, there is actually evidence against that in _Emyn Arnen_ (LR:734),
      which is of unknown meaning, but presumably *'Hills of Royal Water'.
      _Arnen_ has a plural form of _Ernin_ in _Lonnath-Ernin_ (VIII:294).

      [In the 1969 essay on "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor", Tolkien
      writes of _Emyn Arnen_ that an historian of Gondor "thinks therefore
      that _Arnen_ originally was intended to mean 'beside the water, sc.
      Anduin'; but _ar-_ in this sense is Quenya, not Sindarin. Though since
      in the full name _Emyn Arnen_ the _Emyn_ is Sindarin plural of _Amon_
      'hill', Arnen cannot be a Sindarin adjective, since an adjective of
      such shape would have a Sindarin plural _ernain_, or _ernin_. The name
      must therefore have meant 'the hills of Arnen'" (VT42:17). CFH]

      But _Lebennin_ seems strangely contradicting to the late example of
      _Menegroth_ 'the Thousand Caves or Delvings' (XI:415), which has
      _groth_ 'a large excavation' (XI:415) in an unchanged form. Maybe it
      is a genitive construction from *_Meneg 'Roth_ 'Thousand of Cave'?
      That would seem strange to me.

      And what about the earlier example of _Edegil_ 'Seven Stars' (V:379)?
      Is *_gil_ plural in form? No, the plural of _gîl_ 'star' is listed as
      _geil_ (V:358) in the same text. No definite conclusion about the
      behaviour of numerals as adjectives in Sinarin can be drawn from these
      examples. More examples or a statement from Tolkien would be needed.


      Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
      kari.j.tikka@...
      http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
    • Pavel Iosad
      Hello, ... First off, the second elements in genitive appositive constructions are not lenited, though that is not the matter. To the point, actually there is
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 4, 2002
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        Hello,

        > But _Lebennin_ seems strangely contradicting to the late example of
        > _Menegroth_ 'the Thousand Caves or Delvings' (XI:415), which has
        > _groth_ 'a large excavation' (XI:415) in an unchanged form. Maybe it
        > is a genitive construction from *_Meneg 'Roth_ 'Thousand of Cave'?
        > That would seem strange to me.

        First off, the second elements in genitive appositive constructions are
        not lenited, though that is not the matter.

        To the point, actually there is nothing strange in that. For instance,
        those Slavic languages that have a genitive usually employ the genitive
        (plural though) after numerals like a thousand (though sometimes the the
        gen.sg. after small numbers): cf. Russian _tys'acha pescher_ 'thousand
        caves' (where _peschera_ 'cave' is in the gen.pl.) and _tri peschery_
        'three caves' (gen.pl.)

        Even closer to that, Welsh. Numerals can be either in the form 'numeral
        + sg. noun' (and so that is essentialy an appositive genitive
        construction) - _pedwar ceffyl_ 'four horses' or, usually with higher
        numerals, in the form 'numeral + _o_ + plural noun': _unarbymtheg o
        geffylau_ 'sixteen horses'. It is true that _mil_ 'thousand' requirwes
        the _o_ + plural construction, but why would Sindarin follow Welsh
        patterns?

        Pavel
        --
        Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

        Is mall a mharcaicheas am fear a bheachdaicheas
        --Scottish proverb
      • Hans
        ... Of course, you meant gen. sg. here (peschery). It s really interesting that Russian uses the genitive singular for small numbers, and it s still more
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 4, 2002
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          --- In lambengolmor@y..., "Pavel Iosad" <pavel_iosad@m...> wrote:

          > For instance, those Slavic languages that have a genitive usually employ
          > the genitive (plural though) after numerals like a thousand (though
          > sometimes the the gen.sg. after small numbers): cf. Russian _tys'acha
          > pescher_ 'thousand caves' (where _peschera_ 'cave' is in the gen.pl.)
          > and _tri peschery_ 'three caves' (gen.pl.)

          Of course, you meant "gen. sg." here (peschery). It's really interesting
          that Russian uses the genitive singular for small numbers, and it's still
          more interesting that the language has a precise notion of "small":2--4.
          The use of genitive plural starts with 5 (so thousand is on the safe side
          :-). Genitive itself is not surprising, naturally (partitive genitive).

          Hans
        • Lukas Novak
          ... Err, isn t it rather nom. pl. ? ... A: Philosophy is the making of significant distinctions. B: Why isn t that just taxonomy? A: Your question proves my
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 5, 2002
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            > --- In lambengolmor@y..., "Pavel Iosad" <pavel_iosad@m...> wrote:

            >> _tri peschery_ 'three caves' (gen.pl.)

            > Of course, you meant "gen. sg." here (peschery).

            Err, isn't it rather nom. pl. ?

            --------------------------------------------------------
            A: Philosophy is the making of significant distinctions.
            B: Why isn't that just taxonomy?
            A: Your question proves my point.
            (Philip Davis)

            [Again, let's bring this back to Tolkien. Also, please sign your posts.
            And if all you have to submit is a correction like the above, especially
            one not involving Tolkien's languages, please point them out to the
            author privately, and let the author make any necessary correction to
            the list. I've been very pleased with the very high "signal-to-noise"
            ratio of this list, and I intend to maintain it. CFH]
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