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Re: [Lambengolmor] "before" and "after"

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  • David Kiltz
    On Samstag, September 7, 2002, at 03:17 Uhr, Boris Shapiro [227] wrote: ... ... As Carl already mentioned, _apa_ in _apacenye_ is hardly
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 10, 2002
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      On Samstag, September 7, 2002, at 03:17 Uhr, Boris Shapiro [227] wrote:
      A few remarks:

      > Aiya!
      >
      > So it seems that we have three prepositions of similar meaning.
      >
      > _epe_
      > 1) "before" (*_A naa calima epe B_ - VT42:32, VT44:38)
      > 2) "after" (_epesse_ - XII:339)
      >
      > _apa_
      > 1) "fore-" (_apacenye_ - X:216)
      > 2) "after" (_Apanoonar_ - XI:387)
      > "behind" (_ap-pata_ - XI:387)
      >
      > _noo_
      > 1) "before" (_merin sa haryalye alasse noo vanyalye Ambarello_
      > - MS),
      > "ahead, in front" (PE12:66)
      > 2) "*next" (_Nootuile_ - XII:135),
      > "after (of time)" (PE12:66)

      <snip>

      > _apa_ "fore-" is spatial (to see what lies before one), _apa_
      > "after" (after-born) is temporal.

      <snip>

      As Carl already mentioned, _apa_ in _apacenye_ is hardly spatial. It
      does not mean "what I see [spatially] in front of me" but what I see in
      times ahead. I think there is no doubt it is temporal. So the use in
      Quenya is actually straight forward. _apa_ refers to events that take
      place in the future as related to the point of reference. The events
      that will lead to the justification of the name of "foresight" lie in
      the future at the time the name is given. Also, the birth of Men lies
      in the future at the moment of reference, (scil. the birth of the
      Elves).

      P.S. It might be interesting to note that Adunaic possesses
      prepositions that somewhat recall the Elvish ones phonetically. Cf.
      _ob-roth_ "fore-cutting" and _nad-roth_ "hind-track" [XII:376].

      David Kiltz
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      I had forgotten that an interesting text by Tolkien discussing just this problem has been published, in Verlyn Flieger s fascinating book, _A Question of Time:
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 15, 2002
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        I had forgotten that an interesting text by Tolkien discussing just
        this problem has been published, in Verlyn Flieger's fascinating book,
        _A Question of Time: J.R.R. Tolkien's Road to _Faƫrie_ (Kent State,
        1997; and recently available in trade paperback, see Amazon.com). The
        text is given on pp. 69-70. Some excerpts:

        "Our language is confused using _after_ and _before_ both (in certain
        circumstances) of the _future_. We sometimes think and speak of the
        future as what lies before us, we look ahead, are provident,
        forward-looking, yet are ancestors preceded us and are our
        fore-fathers; and any event in time is _before_ one that is later. We
        speak as if events and a succession of human lives were an endless
        column moving forward into the unknown.... As far as a single
        experiencing mind goes, it seems a most natural transference of spatial
        to linear language to say that the past is _behind_ it and that it
        _advances_ forwards into the future, that later events are _before_ or
        in _front_ of earlier ones.

        "In Elvish sentiment the _future_ was not one of hope or desire, but a
        decay and retrogression from former bliss and power.... Their
        position, as of latter day sentiment, was one of exiles driven forward
        (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking
        backward.

        "But in _actual language_ time and place had distinct expressions."

        And there Tolkien's text breaks off.

        Carl
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