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Re: [Lambengolmor] "before" and "after"

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  • Boris Shapiro
    Aiya! So it seems that we have three prepositions of similar meaning. _epe_ 1) before (*_A naa calima epe B_ - VT42:32, VT44:38) 2) after (_epesse_ -
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 7 6:17 AM
      Aiya!

      So it seems that we have three prepositions of similar meaning.

      _epe_
      1) "before" (*_A naa calima epe B_ - VT42:32, VT44:38)
      2) "after" (_epesse_ - XII:339)

      _apa_
      1) "fore-" (_apacenye_ - X:216)
      2) "after" (_Apanoonar_ - XI:387)
      "behind" (_ap-pata_ - XI:387)

      _noo_
      1) "before" (_merin sa haryalye alasse noo vanyalye Ambarello_ - MS),
      "ahead, in front" (PE12:66)
      2) "*next" (_Nootuile_ - XII:135),
      "after (of time)" (PE12:66)


      Let's try to make it clear. _epe_ "before" (A is bright before B) is
      obviously not temporal, so it is spatial. _epe_ "after" (after-name)
      is temporal.

      _apa_ "fore-" is spatial (to see what lies before one), _apa_
      "after" (after-born) is temporal. But is _ap(a)_ "behind" temporal or
      spatial?

      _noo_ "ahead, in front" is spatial, but is _epe_ "before" (before
      you leave Middle-earth) spatial or temporal? _noo_ "after (of time)"
      is temporal, but is _noo_ "*next" spatial or temporal? I'm a bit
      bewildered.



      Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo [Boris Shapiro]


      : masse sii nar i nuunatani · elessar · elessar? :


      [I think the question to ask is, what is the _primary_ sense of each word?
      Looking at the occurrences of _apa-_, I think we can fairly surely take
      'after' as the primary meaning (and taking the translation of _apacenye_
      as 'foresight' being non-literal, as I suggested before, since it refers
      more literally to sight of something that occurs after the present time).
      With _epe_ and _nу_, it is much harder to say. _nу_ in particular seems to
      have had its primary meaning changed by Tolkien, since its usages in both
      the "_merin_" sentence ('before') and the QL ('after, of time') are
      temporal and apparently irreconcilable. Carl]
    • Irene A Gates
      ... Before we start using it as data: do we know that the _merin_ sentence (_merin sa haryalye alasse nó vanyalye Ambarello_ I hope that you have happiness
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 9 12:40 AM
        Carl wrote:

        > _nó_ in particular seems to
        > have had its primary meaning changed by Tolkien, since its usages in both
        > the "_merin_" sentence ('before') and the QL ('after, of time') are
        > temporal and apparently irreconcilable.

        Before we start using it as data: do we know that the "_merin_" sentence
        (_merin sa haryalye alasse nó vanyalye Ambarello_ 'I hope that you have
        happiness before you pass from the world') is authentic? And even if it is,
        do we know that it means what it's purported to mean?

        In a message to Elfling dated 24 April 1999 David Salo tentatively dated
        the "_merin_" sentence to the period 1954-1959. In that same period,
        Tolkien was working on _The Athrabeth_, in which Finrod says, on the
        subject of Elvish and Human forms of mortality:

        "If we are indeed the _Eruhin_, the children of the One, then He will not
        suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by
        ourselves. This is the last foundation of _Estel_, which we keep even when
        we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His
        Children's joy." (X:321)

        So based on internal evidence, the interpretation 'I hope that you have
        happiness after you pass from the world' is as reasonable as (albeit hardly
        any more tactful than) the one usually given.

        Irene

        ---
        Irene A Gates Webmaster, aviculturist, linguaphile
        Campbellville, Ontario, Canada <112321.3163@...>

        "The function of the expert is not to be more right than other people,
        but to be wrong for more sophisticated reasons"
        -- Dr David Butler, in the Observer, 1969
      • David Kiltz
        On Samstag, September 7, 2002, at 03:17 Uhr, Boris Shapiro [227] wrote: ... ... As Carl already mentioned, _apa_ in _apacenye_ is hardly
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 10 4:25 AM
          On Samstag, September 7, 2002, at 03:17 Uhr, Boris Shapiro [227] wrote:
          A few remarks:

          > Aiya!
          >
          > So it seems that we have three prepositions of similar meaning.
          >
          > _epe_
          > 1) "before" (*_A naa calima epe B_ - VT42:32, VT44:38)
          > 2) "after" (_epesse_ - XII:339)
          >
          > _apa_
          > 1) "fore-" (_apacenye_ - X:216)
          > 2) "after" (_Apanoonar_ - XI:387)
          > "behind" (_ap-pata_ - XI:387)
          >
          > _noo_
          > 1) "before" (_merin sa haryalye alasse noo vanyalye Ambarello_
          > - MS),
          > "ahead, in front" (PE12:66)
          > 2) "*next" (_Nootuile_ - XII:135),
          > "after (of time)" (PE12:66)

          <snip>

          > _apa_ "fore-" is spatial (to see what lies before one), _apa_
          > "after" (after-born) is temporal.

          <snip>

          As Carl already mentioned, _apa_ in _apacenye_ is hardly spatial. It
          does not mean "what I see [spatially] in front of me" but what I see in
          times ahead. I think there is no doubt it is temporal. So the use in
          Quenya is actually straight forward. _apa_ refers to events that take
          place in the future as related to the point of reference. The events
          that will lead to the justification of the name of "foresight" lie in
          the future at the time the name is given. Also, the birth of Men lies
          in the future at the moment of reference, (scil. the birth of the
          Elves).

          P.S. It might be interesting to note that Adunaic possesses
          prepositions that somewhat recall the Elvish ones phonetically. Cf.
          _ob-roth_ "fore-cutting" and _nad-roth_ "hind-track" [XII:376].

          David Kiltz
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          I had forgotten that an interesting text by Tolkien discussing just this problem has been published, in Verlyn Flieger s fascinating book, _A Question of Time:
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 15 6:31 AM
            I had forgotten that an interesting text by Tolkien discussing just
            this problem has been published, in Verlyn Flieger's fascinating book,
            _A Question of Time: J.R.R. Tolkien's Road to _Faërie_ (Kent State,
            1997; and recently available in trade paperback, see Amazon.com). The
            text is given on pp. 69-70. Some excerpts:

            "Our language is confused using _after_ and _before_ both (in certain
            circumstances) of the _future_. We sometimes think and speak of the
            future as what lies before us, we look ahead, are provident,
            forward-looking, yet are ancestors preceded us and are our
            fore-fathers; and any event in time is _before_ one that is later. We
            speak as if events and a succession of human lives were an endless
            column moving forward into the unknown.... As far as a single
            experiencing mind goes, it seems a most natural transference of spatial
            to linear language to say that the past is _behind_ it and that it
            _advances_ forwards into the future, that later events are _before_ or
            in _front_ of earlier ones.

            "In Elvish sentiment the _future_ was not one of hope or desire, but a
            decay and retrogression from former bliss and power.... Their
            position, as of latter day sentiment, was one of exiles driven forward
            (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking
            backward.

            "But in _actual language_ time and place had distinct expressions."

            And there Tolkien's text breaks off.

            Carl
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