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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: palatalized /l/

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  • Ales Bican
    ... [...] ... **I may be wrong, but my understanding of it is different. Tolkien wrote that L was to some degree palatalized in the environments in
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 19, 2002
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      "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote:

      > > Whereas, in the Eldarin tongues, the _l_ sound in the same environment is
      > > a _palatal_ lateral (the inverted "y" of the IPA),
      >
      [...]
      > One important difference in these situations, however, is the fact that the
      > pure vowel sounds are _always_ pronounced purely in Eldarin; while the
      > palatal _l_ is an _allophone_ of /l/, occurring in palatal environments.

      **I may be wrong, but my understanding of it is different. Tolkien wrote
      that L was "to some degree 'palatalized'" in the environments in question.
      He wrote "palatalized" not "palatal". As far as I know there may be two
      distinct softened l's, at least Slovak (the language I mentioned earlier) has
      a palatal _l_ and palatalized _l_, although the difference in sound between
      them is very small and just phonetic, not phonologic. As far as I know the
      palatal _l_ occurs in Spanish (_calle_ "street") and the palatalized one in
      Russian.

      I think that the sound Tolkien had in mind is a *palatalized* _l_ and
      indeed an allophone of /l/, while the *palatal* _l_ is a phoneme which
      is transcribed as _ly_ in Quenya and would be the sound transcribed
      by the "turned y" in IPA.


      Ales Bican

      --
      Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
      i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
      e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)


      [I think you are right, Ales. In fact, the main point of my original editorial
      addendum to S�bastien's post was that the _l_ Tolkien is describing in the
      environment of the front vowels _e_ and _i_ is (probably) _not_ the same as
      the _ly_ that was then under discussion. I didn't choose my terms very
      carefully, though -- I should have observed a strict distinction between
      _palatalized l_ (the sound Tolkien is indicating) and a _palatal l_ (the sound
      represented by IPA turned y). It was this lapse on my part that led me into
      picking, erroneously I now think, the turned y as the indicated sound. I'm not
      sure what the proper representation of a palatalized l is in the IPA, but it is
      apparently not the turned y. Thanks for clarifying the matter. Carl]
    • Jérémie Knuesel
      Did Tolkien use a name more specific than the language of the Rohirrim to refer to this tongue? The word Rohirric commonly used doesn t seem to appear in
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 25, 2002
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        Did Tolkien use a name more specific than "the language of the Rohirrim" to
        refer to this tongue? The word 'Rohirric' commonly used doesn't seem to
        appear in any Tolkien text, and I could not find the word 'Rohirian' in
        "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" in VT42, though I read somewhere
        that it was.

        Namárie,

        Jérémie K.

        [I've done some searching and can find no occurrence of the term
        "Rohirric" in Tolkien's writings. (Perhaps someone else will have better
        luck?) Very interesting! The terms I have been able to find are "the
        language of Rohan", "Rohan" (in contrast with "Hobbit") in various places
        in _The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor_, and, once in the same essay,
        "Rohanese" (VT42:8; the term "Rohirian" does not occur in that text). Carl]
      • Arden R. Smith
        I wonder who first used the term Rohirric. To the best of my knowledge, the earliest attestation is in The One Inconsistency in LotR by Robert Foster,
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 25, 2002
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          I wonder who first used the term "Rohirric." To the best of my
          knowledge, the earliest attestation is in "The One Inconsistency in
          LotR" by Robert Foster, _Parma Eldalamberon_ #1 (Autumn 1971), p. 9.

          --
          ********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

          --Lewis Carroll,
          _Through the Looking-glass_
          ********************************************************************
        • Ales Bican
          ... **I think it would be an _l_ with a small superscript _j_. Similarly, labialization would be represented with a superscript _w_ and aspiration with a
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 5 9:45 AM
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            Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

            > I'm not sure what the proper representation of a palatalized l is in
            > the IPA, but it is apparently not the turned y. Thanks for clarifying
            > the matter.

            **I think it would be an _l_ with a small superscript _j_. Similarly,
            labialization would be represented with a superscript _w_ and
            aspiration with a superscript _h_.


            Ales Bican

            --
            Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
            i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
            e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
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