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Re: palatalized /l/

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  • Sébastien Bertho
    ... I ve seen, on a chart of unicode characters (http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0300.pdf), a sign described as IPA palatalization (#0321). It s a small
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 19, 2002
      Carl Hostetter wrote :

      >> the _l_ sound in the same environment is a _palatal_ lateral (the
      >> inverted "y" of the IPA),

      > The sound I wanted to convey is more precisely called a "turned y" (it
      > looks like a "y" rotated by 180 degrees). It is there equated with Italian
      > _gli_ and Castillian _ll_ (which, if I understand those correctly, may be
      > more strongly palatal than the Eldarin _l_ in palatal environment, but
      > it's an approximation).

      I've seen, on a chart of unicode characters
      (http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0300.pdf), a sign described as IPA
      palatalization (#0321). It's a small hook, (looking left) that is here said
      to correspond to the small /j/ of the IPA.
      Could it be possible to transcribe the palatalized /l/ with this small hook
      added to a normal [l] ? Or is it used for a normal palatalization (perhaps
      too strong to transcribe the Elvish sound) ?

      In his "Dictionnaire des langues elfiques, volume 1 - quenya", Edouard
      Kloczko transcribe the palatalized /l/ with the same kind of small hook, but
      turned right . Looking to the unicode chart, this sign (#0322) is said to
      be used for "retroflexion" in the IPA.

      I'm quite lost !

      Sébastien
    • Ivan A Derzhanski
      ... [...] ... I have to disagree, Carl. The palatal lateral approximant is the sound written in Quenya as _ly_. What you re saying here amounts to equating
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 19, 2002
        "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote:
        > I'd like to comment on a couple of things I wrote in my editorial
        > addendum to Sébastien's latest post:
        >
        > > Whereas, in the Eldarin tongues, the _l_ sound in the same
        > > environment [_sc._ between /e/ or /i/ and pause] is a _palatal_
        > > lateral (the inverted "y" of the IPA),
        [...]
        > The sound I wanted to convey is more precisely called
        > a "turned y" (it looks like a "y" rotated by 180 degrees).
        > It is there equated with Italian _gli_ and Castillian _ll_
        > (which, if I understand those correctly, may be more strongly
        > palatal than the Eldarin _l_ in palatal environment, but it's
        > an approximation).

        I have to disagree, Carl. The palatal lateral approximant is
        the sound written in Quenya as _ly_. What you're saying here
        amounts to equating the sound in the middle of _elye_ to the
        one in the middle of _elen_ (which can hardly be different
        from the one at the end of _él_).

        Here's how I see it: There is the regular dental/alveolar
        lateral approximant, written as <l> in IPA, and there is
        the same sound velarised -- the main place of articulation
        is still just behind the teeth, but in addition the back
        of the tongue is raised towards the velum and its body
        lowered away from the palate -- written in IPA as <l>
        with a tilde across it. Note that the plain sound is
        not palatalised as such, but it's less not palatalised
        than the velarised one, if you see what I mean.

        Now in English final /l/ is always velarised, whereas in
        French, German, Czech etc. it isn't. In Turkish, otoh,
        final /l/ is velarised after a back vowel, but not after
        a front vowel. My idea is that Quenya and Sindarin are
        like Turkish.

        When an English word such as _bell_ or _fill_ reaches
        the ear of a Sindarin speaker, he hears a front vowel,
        but then the kind of palatal approximant that he's only
        accustomed to hearing after back vowels. On the basis
        of the effect his mind reconstructs the likely cause,
        an intervening back vowel that isn't really there.

        (Note that I have no use here for the possible hypothesis
        that Elvish /l/ is palatalised -- not palatal! -- after
        front vowels, but what I've said is consistent with it.)

        --
        <fa-al-_haylu wa-al-laylu wa-al-baydA'u ta`rifunI
        wa-as-sayfu wa-ar-rum.hu wa-al-qir.tAsu wa-al-qalamu>
        (Abu t-Tayyib Ahmad Ibn Hussayn al-Mutanabbi)
        Ivan A Derzhanski <http://www.math.bas.bg/ml/iad/>
        H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria <iad@...>
        W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences
      • Ales Bican
        ... [...] ... **I may be wrong, but my understanding of it is different. Tolkien wrote that L was to some degree palatalized in the environments in
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 19, 2002
          "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote:

          > > Whereas, in the Eldarin tongues, the _l_ sound in the same environment is
          > > a _palatal_ lateral (the inverted "y" of the IPA),
          >
          [...]
          > One important difference in these situations, however, is the fact that the
          > pure vowel sounds are _always_ pronounced purely in Eldarin; while the
          > palatal _l_ is an _allophone_ of /l/, occurring in palatal environments.

          **I may be wrong, but my understanding of it is different. Tolkien wrote
          that L was "to some degree 'palatalized'" in the environments in question.
          He wrote "palatalized" not "palatal". As far as I know there may be two
          distinct softened l's, at least Slovak (the language I mentioned earlier) has
          a palatal _l_ and palatalized _l_, although the difference in sound between
          them is very small and just phonetic, not phonologic. As far as I know the
          palatal _l_ occurs in Spanish (_calle_ "street") and the palatalized one in
          Russian.

          I think that the sound Tolkien had in mind is a *palatalized* _l_ and
          indeed an allophone of /l/, while the *palatal* _l_ is a phoneme which
          is transcribed as _ly_ in Quenya and would be the sound transcribed
          by the "turned y" in IPA.


          Ales Bican

          --
          Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
          i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
          e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)


          [I think you are right, Ales. In fact, the main point of my original editorial
          addendum to S�bastien's post was that the _l_ Tolkien is describing in the
          environment of the front vowels _e_ and _i_ is (probably) _not_ the same as
          the _ly_ that was then under discussion. I didn't choose my terms very
          carefully, though -- I should have observed a strict distinction between
          _palatalized l_ (the sound Tolkien is indicating) and a _palatal l_ (the sound
          represented by IPA turned y). It was this lapse on my part that led me into
          picking, erroneously I now think, the turned y as the indicated sound. I'm not
          sure what the proper representation of a palatalized l is in the IPA, but it is
          apparently not the turned y. Thanks for clarifying the matter. Carl]
        • Jérémie Knuesel
          Did Tolkien use a name more specific than the language of the Rohirrim to refer to this tongue? The word Rohirric commonly used doesn t seem to appear in
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 25, 2002
            Did Tolkien use a name more specific than "the language of the Rohirrim" to
            refer to this tongue? The word 'Rohirric' commonly used doesn't seem to
            appear in any Tolkien text, and I could not find the word 'Rohirian' in
            "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor" in VT42, though I read somewhere
            that it was.

            Namárie,

            Jérémie K.

            [I've done some searching and can find no occurrence of the term
            "Rohirric" in Tolkien's writings. (Perhaps someone else will have better
            luck?) Very interesting! The terms I have been able to find are "the
            language of Rohan", "Rohan" (in contrast with "Hobbit") in various places
            in _The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor_, and, once in the same essay,
            "Rohanese" (VT42:8; the term "Rohirian" does not occur in that text). Carl]
          • Arden R. Smith
            I wonder who first used the term Rohirric. To the best of my knowledge, the earliest attestation is in The One Inconsistency in LotR by Robert Foster,
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 25, 2002
              I wonder who first used the term "Rohirric." To the best of my
              knowledge, the earliest attestation is in "The One Inconsistency in
              LotR" by Robert Foster, _Parma Eldalamberon_ #1 (Autumn 1971), p. 9.

              --
              ********************************************************************
              Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

              "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
              "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
              "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

              --Lewis Carroll,
              _Through the Looking-glass_
              ********************************************************************
            • Ales Bican
              ... **I think it would be an _l_ with a small superscript _j_. Similarly, labialization would be represented with a superscript _w_ and aspiration with a
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 5, 2002
                Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                > I'm not sure what the proper representation of a palatalized l is in
                > the IPA, but it is apparently not the turned y. Thanks for clarifying
                > the matter.

                **I think it would be an _l_ with a small superscript _j_. Similarly,
                labialization would be represented with a superscript _w_ and
                aspiration with a superscript _h_.


                Ales Bican

                --
                Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
                i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
                e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
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