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Re: Initial _ly-_ and enclitics

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  • gentlebeldin
    ... Petri, you ll remember I didn t share this opinion. But I have to take into consideration new (for me!) material, and now I think you are right. In XI:363
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 14, 2002
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      --- In lambengolmor@y..., "Petri Tikka" <kari.j.tikka@w...> wrote:

      > The first reaction to the word _lyenna_ would be that initial
      > palatalized Ls would be allowed in Quenya. But I am not quite sure. It
      > may be that it is an enclitic of _elyenna_, the initial vowel
      > disappearing because of the final vowel in the preceding word.

      Petri, you'll remember I didn't share this opinion. But I have to take
      into consideration new (for me!) material, and now I think you are
      right. In XI:363 (it's the Harper Collins paperback) we read about the
      "de/le as pronominal elements in the 2nd person". This explains the
      Sindarin pronoun _dîn_, btw.

      We also read "dj became ly medially in Quenya". I don't think the
      "medially" was stressed without any need: Initial dj (or DY in the
      Etymologies) did NOT change into _ly_! (cf. V:394, DYEL-, Q _yelma_)
      Since the word _lyenna_ obviously is pronominal 2nd person, the
      _dj_>_ly_ must have been medial, after some elided vowel, indeed.

      Hans
    • Ales Bican
      Hans commented on Petri Tikka s suggestion that _lyenna_ ... **This does not, however, necessarily mean that _ly_ in _lyenna_ has to be medial. As you cited,
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 5, 2002
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        Hans commented on Petri Tikka's suggestion that _lyenna_
        may be an elided form of _elyenna_:

        > In XI:363 (it's the Harper Collins paperback) we read about the
        > "de/le as pronominal elements in the 2nd person". This explains the
        > Sindarin pronoun _dîn_, btw.
        >
        > We also read "dj became ly medially in Quenya". I don't think the
        > "medially" was stressed without any need: Initial dj (or DY in the
        > Etymologies) did NOT change into _ly_! (cf. V:394, DYEL-, Q _yelma_)
        > Since the word _lyenna_ obviously is pronominal 2nd person, the
        > _dj_>_ly_ must have been medial, after some elided vowel, indeed.

        **This does not, however, necessarily mean that _ly_ in _lyenna_
        has to be medial. As you cited, there is a variantion between de/le
        in the 2nd person and _lyenna_ may well be from the element le,
        not de. I am not sure where Tolkien intended the variant de to be
        realized, because both pronominal suffixes _-l_ and _-le_ (e.g.
        in _óle_, see VT43:29) seem to be from le. Perhaps he wanted
        to explain _-lda_ "your" (in Aragorn's farewell _Arwen vanimalda,
        namárie!_, LotR 1st ed.).


        Ales Bican

        --
        Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
        i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
        e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
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