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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: _úcarindor_

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... That would indeed be unreasonable. But if you mean to imply that that is how the interpretation of the marks Tolkien made against _úcarer_ was arrived
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 7 5:35 AM
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      On 8/7/02 3:47 AM, "Fredrik" <gwaihir@...> wrote:

      > However, I do not think it reasonable to support the hypothesis that there
      > is an aorist form present in _i úcarer emmen_ by turning the postcard
      > upside down and pointing out that Tolkien's marks could be interpreted as
      > an _i_.

      That would indeed be unreasonable. But if you mean to imply that that is how
      the interpretation of the marks Tolkien made against _úcarer_ was arrived
      out, you are utterly mistaken. Tolkien very often did not dot his "i"s, if
      writing with any haste or notationally (as here); and what you see as an
      underposed dot can easily be seen as underlining for emphasis or even by way
      of querying (another very common practice).

      The fact remains that, semantically and syntactically, an aorist verb is by
      far the expected form. The fact also remains that Tolkien did either remark
      upon (if your reading of the mark is correct) or consider changing (if it is
      an "i") the form. Together, these facts far more strongly suggest that
      Tolkien at least considered changing _úcarer_ to *_úcarir_, than they do a
      past-tense (or any other) interpretation.

      I should note as a tangent that it is not an editor/analyst's obligation to
      present every _possible_ interpretation or explanation. We often must select
      and present only those that seem likeliest to us. Our obligation is only to
      avoid misleading our readers into thinking certain what is only tentative.
      Hence Pat's use of the word "suggests" when presenting the aorist
      interpretation.


      --

      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • pa2rick
      ... to Carl Hostetter s comment (re the form _úcarer_ do ill, trespass in At. V, VI) that If what you say is true of the aorist interpretation, ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 7 6:12 AM
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        --- In lambengolmor@y..., Fredrik <gwaihir@s...> wrote in response
        to Carl Hostetter's comment (re the form _úcarer_ 'do ill, trespass'
        in At. V, VI) that "If what you say is true of the aorist interpretation,
        it is every bit as true of your past-tense interpretation":


        > In the post that Carl is responding to, I said that where Patrick
        > Wynne in his _VT_ analysis assumes an _i_ to be present, I
        > see an exclamation mark. I did not say this in support of a
        > past-tense interpretation.

        Later in this same message, Fredrik wrote:

        > However, I do not think it reasonable to support the hypothesis
        > that there is an aorist form present in _i úcarer emmen_ by
        > turning the postcard upside down and pointing out that Tolkien's
        > marks could be interpreted as an _i_.

        Certainly one of the most irritating aspects of online discourse
        is the tendency people have to restate someone's opinion in
        a distorted form, then to argue against the distorted version
        rather than against what was originally said. This is what Fredrik
        is doing here.

        I have never said, and do not believe, that the faint pencilled
        markings above the _e_ of _úcarer_ represent the letter _i_.
        This is what was stated regarding this form in VT: "Faint
        pencilled markings over the _e_ suggest that Tolkien intended
        to emend _úcarer_ > _úcarir_ (though the form remains _úcarer_
        in At. VI)." (VT43:12)

        Please note that the mark or marks in question are described
        here only as "faint pencilled markings" -- precisely because what
        they represent is unclear. Also note that it is only said that these
        markings "suggest" Tolkien's _intent_ to emend _úcarer_ to
        _úcarir_. Nowhere in these remarks is there an assertion
        that an _i_ is explicitly present. The same thinking underlies
        my comment in message #176 that "_úcarer_ in At. V was
        apparently marked for correction > _úcarir_"

        The reason that I have supposed these "markings" were
        intended to indicate that _úcarer_ should be changed to
        _úcarir_ is this -- _úcarer_ in and of itself appears to be
        an anomalous form; if it is a pa.t., then we should expect
        _úcárer_, and if it is aorist then we should expect _úcarir_.
        Given these two possibilities, it is probably significant that
        in emending At. V, Tolkien made markings of some sort
        above the _e_ in this form -- "as if to draw attention to
        it", as Fredrik himself stated in message #177. Why would
        Tolkien draw attention to the _e_ in _úcarer_? The likeliest
        explanation is that he felt it should be emended to the
        expected aorist form _úcarir_.

        As for the retention of _úcarer_ in At. VI, this might indicate
        that the _e_ in both occurrences of this form was deliberate
        rather than (as I have previously posited) an error. It may
        be that in writing At. V Tolkien was considering changing
        the aorist pl. ending to _-er_. When emending At. V he
        was undecided on this point, and so marked the _e_ in
        _úcarer_ "to draw attention to it", i.e. he was contemplating
        changing this ending back to _-ir_. Then when writing At. VI
        he decided to stick with the "new" aorist pl. ending _-er_.
        If this was the case, the change was probably short-lived; cf.
        _i karir quettar ómainen_ 'those who form words with voices'
        (XI:391) in _Quendi and Eldar_.

        To reiterate: I do _not_ think the markings over the _e_ are
        themselves a letter _i_, upside-down or right-side up. The
        mark or markings (whatever it or they may be) were meant
        to call attention to the _e_, probably indicating that Tolkien
        was uncertain about it and considering its emendation, in
        which case the likeliest candidate for the emended form
        would be _úcarir_, the normal aorist pl. form.

        -- Patrick Wynne
      • David Kiltz
        ... Are you sure it would be _úcárer_ with two long vowels following each other ? David Kiltz [As I ve already pointed out in this thread, the word
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 8 3:40 AM
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          On Mittwoch, August 7, 2002, at 03:12 Uhr, pa2rick wrote [in mess. 189|:

          > _úcarer_ in and of itself appears to be an anomalous form; if it is a
          > pa.t., then we should expect _úcárer_

          Are you sure it would be _úcárer_ with two long vowels following each
          other ?

          David Kiltz

          [As I've already pointed out in this thread, the word _únótime_
          (Galadriel's Lamaent) shows that there is no phonological prohibition
          against two long vowels in adjoining syllables. Carl]
        • Erestel
          ... anomalous form; if it is a pa.t., then we should expect _úcárer_ ... vowels following each other ? ... _únótime_ (Galadriel s Lamaent) shows that there
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 8 4:30 AM
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            > 189 / Patrick : _úcarer_ in and of itself appears to be an
            anomalous form; if it is a pa.t., then we should expect _úcárer_

            > 190 / David : Are you sure it would be _úcárer_ with two long
            vowels following each other ?

            > 190 / Carl : As I've already pointed out in this thread, the word
            _únótime_ (Galadriel's Lamaent) shows that there is no phonological
            prohibition against two long vowels in adjoining syllables.


            I don't know wether _*úcárer_ would be possible or not ; I just
            wonder if _únótime_ example is sufficient to validate _*úcárer_ ;
            Indeed there are 4 syllables in _únótime_ so that the pronunciation
            might be more evident than in _*úcárer_ (?)...

            Jérôme
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