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Re: Elision and _'n_

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  • Pavel Iosad
    Hello, ... [...] ... This is possible, however, I would still hold that elision in _siluv(a) (e)lye_ would not be possible. It is not unlikely that elision can
    Message 1 of 4 , May 30, 2002
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      Hello,

      Terry Dock wrote:

      >> I disagree. Elision in Quenya only seems to appear in the cases of two
      >> identical vowels near the word border.[...]
      >
      >Well, maybe not. Let's consider the following sentence: _Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya
      >Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!_ (S:229)

      [...]
      >If Ales is right, then _Utúlie'n aurë!_ would be an example of an elision
      >occuring between unidentical vowels; in this case E and I.

      This is possible, however, I would still hold that elision in _siluv(a)
      (e)lye_ would not be possible. It is not unlikely that elision can happen
      in the case of non-identical vowels if they are, say, both front or both
      back and so the elision is in effect a case of assimilation. That would
      possibly account for the elision in the cited phrase, but would still
      invalidate any possibility of elision in the example at hand.

      >The example cited above, whether Ales is right or not, seems to indicate the
      >elision can happen on the second vowel: _Utúlie'n aurë!_ Unless the
      >explanation for this _'n_ is entirely different of course.

      Fair point.

      Pavel
      --
      Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

      'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
      --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
    • Petri Tikka
      ... From: Pavel Iosad To: lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:55 PM Subject: [Lambengolmor] Re: Elision and _ n_ Aiya! ... Aiya ...
      Message 2 of 4 , May 30, 2002
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Pavel Iosad
        To: lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 10:55 PM
        Subject: [Lambengolmor] Re: Elision and _'n_

        Aiya!

        Terry Dock wrote:

        >>Well, maybe not. Let's consider the following sentence: _Utúlie'n aurë!
        Aiya
        >>Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!_ (S:229)

        [...]
        >>If Ales is right, then _Utúlie'n aurë!_ would be an example of an elision
        >>occuring between unidentical vowels; in this case E and I.

        Pavel Iosad wrote:

        >This is possible, however, I would still hold that elision in _siluv(a)
        >(e)lye_ would not be possible. It is not unlikely that elision can happen
        >in the case of non-identical vowels if they are, say, both front or both
        >back and so the elision is in effect a case of assimilation. That would
        >possibly account for the elision in the cited phrase, but would still
        >invalidate any possibility of elision in the example at hand.

        There is another attested example of elision between E and I:
        _ír' Anarinya queluva_ (V:72). _nai elen siluva lyenna_ also
        has two adjacent vowels of dissimilar nature, so why couldn't
        this be another case of elision? I know that one may then wonder
        why it isn't _*nai elen siluv' elyenna_, but since we have so few
        examples of elisions, why couldn't it happen the othe way around?
        Both syllables are unstressed, so elision is equally possible in both
        of them.

        Petri Tikka
      • Pavel Iosad
        Hello, ... All right, you got me here. Objection withdrawn, at least partly. Note though - the elided vowel happens to be the first one. [...] ... I do not
        Message 3 of 4 , May 30, 2002
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          Hello,
          Petri Tikka wrote:

          >There is another attested example of elision between E and I:
          >_ír' Anarinya queluva_ (V:72).

          All right, you got me here. Objection withdrawn, at least partly.

          Note though - the elided vowel happens to be the first one.

          [...]
          >I know that one may then wonder
          >why it isn't _*nai elen siluv' elyenna_, but since we have so few
          >examples of elisions, why couldn't it happen the othe way around?

          I do not find this a sound argument. Of course, absence of evidence
          is not evidence of absence, but neither can absence of evidence be
          taken as evdience of presence.

          >Both syllables are unstressed, so elision is equally possible in both
          >of them.

          You seem to have missed my point about the structural importance of the
          prefixed vowel. The emphatic pronoun without the prefixed _sundóma_ is
          a mere suffix. That is why I guess it (the _sundóma) won't in all
          probability be elided.

          Also, since you argue that _ly_ is an impermissible initial, I am yet
          to hear a justification :-) I cannot understand how _ly_ differs from
          _ny_.

          Pavel
          --
          Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...

          'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
          --JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
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