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Re: [Lambengolmor] aorist stem (was _-Vndo)

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  • Ales Bican
    ... **They of course might be. I think it is not even certain whether this stage of Quenya had _the_ aorist we know from later sources. Why is the article
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1, 2002
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      Patrick Wynne wrote:

      > The forms _antaróta_ 'he gave it' and _antalto_ 'they gave'
      > from Fíriel's song might be present-tense forms, analogous
      > to the "historical present" of Latin.

      **They of course might be. I think it is not even certain whether this
      stage of Quenya had _the_ aorist we know from later sources. Why
      is the article emphatized? Because there is another aorist in Quenya
      (or rather Qenya). This aorist was similar to the Greek one (as far
      as I can say, I do not know Greek a lot and if I said it was similar
      to the aorist in Old Czech, you would hardly know what I am talking
      about *smile*). The tense called aorist seems to be a past tense with
      a perfective aspect.
      Q _alatya_, aor. _altíne_, or _alantye_ (PE13:158R; a meaning of
      the verb is not given but probably *"shield, protect")
      Q _rosta-_, aor. _róse_, _róre_ (PE13:159R; probably *"rise")
      Now as far as I am aware there is no imperfect given. Nevertheless,
      I assume the tense existed, since Noldorin also has the aorist and
      imperfect. See conjugations in _Early Noldorin Grammar_ in PE13
      and an entry _mad_ on p. 163R:
      _madath_, past imperfect, was eating
      _maint_, aor. ate

      As for Latin, well, I do not know Latin a lot either, but as far as I
      can say it does not have an aorist tense. But as far as Tolkien's
      languages go, Adunaic aorist, for instance, was used both for present
      and past (see SD:439).
      Since the form _anta_ seems to be structurally an a-stem aorist, I
      would personally say it is an aorist used in past.


      Ales Bican

      --
      Mi dissero che e quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
      i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
      e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
    • Ales Bican
      ... **But perhaps it does. I have noticed that strong pasts are somewhat strengthened either by nasal-infixion or lengthening of the stem-vowel. And in fact
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2002
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        I wrote:

        > > **I do not think the occurence of _n_ in a word has to imply that it
        > > is a marker of the past. Strong pasts of the _láve_ type do not have
        > > this component. And as for the strong pasts of the _quente_ type, the
        > > _n_ there may be explained as a nasal infixion, I think.

        David Kiltz commented:

        > No, it doesn't have to, but it's a strong possibility. Of course, that,
        > reversely, doesn't say anything about other past tense formations.

        **But perhaps it does. I have noticed that strong pasts are somewhat
        strengthened either by nasal-infixion or lengthening of the stem-vowel.
        And in fact the nasal-infixion could also be interpreted as a lengthening
        of the stem-vowel. If we say that the culmin in a syllable _quent_ is
        _en_ and the coda is _t_, then it is comparable to syllable _láv_ where
        the culmin is _á_ and coda _v_ (the _á_ can be interpreted as _aa_).
        Strong pasts would then be of this pattern:
        CV:Ce (i.e. consonant - long vowel - consonant - a past suffix).

        > The
        > fact that past is indicated by _-n_ (suffixed or by conditioned
        > soundchange, infixed) does not, of course, imply that all _-n_
        > formations are to be interpreted as "past".

        **Of course, because nasal-infixion is very common in Quenya.
        Similarly (as I already pointed out), the lengthening of the stem-
        vowel is not exclusive for pasts.

        > As for _quente_, I think it's *_quet-ne_ > _quente_.

        **This is of course possible and it is what I also thought. However,
        I am not really convinced now because of Telerin pa.t. _delle_ of
        _delia-_ I mentioned in an earlier letter (entitled _ulle_), though
        I admit that nasal-infixion before a sonant might be temptative.


        Ales Bican

        --
        Mi dissero che e quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
        i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
        e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)

        [An entirely unambiguous example of a Quenya strong pa.t.
        formed via n-infixion is _anwe_ in _Quendi and Eldar_, said
        there to be "an old 'strong' past tense" of _auta-_ 'go away,
        leave', "only found in archaic language" (XI:366). I.e., root
        _*awa_ > pa.t. _a-n-we_. -- Patrick Wynne]
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