Re: Q. aorist (vs. past)
- Patrick Wynne wrote:
>[I don't think _úcárer_ might be expected. For one thing, _úcarer_ occursYes, the form _úcarer_ remained in At. VI. To my mind, the pencilled
>twice, in both At. V and VI, making it unlikely to be a slip. Moreover, as
>noted of this form in At. V in VT43:12: "Faint pencilled markings over the
>_e_ suggest that Tolkien intended to emend _úcarer_ > _úcarir_ (though
>the form remains _úcarer_ in At. VI)."
markings over the _e_ suggest that Tolkien *considered* changing _úcarer_ >
_úcarir_, but since the change did not carry over to At. VI he may have
thought twice about it.
In any case: Do you mean to suggest that _úcarer_ was a slip for _úcarir_?
I find it less unlikely that Tolkien omitted an accent mark than that he
wrote _e_ for _i_ by mistake.
Then again, if _úcarer_ was *not* a slip, then both _úcarer_ and _úcarir_
must be regarded as grammatical forms. If so, do they mean the same thing?
Perhaps there is some distinction that would explain the intentional use of
_e_ in this case. Such as, the two forms expressing past tense and aorist,
>Note the use of present _trespass_ in the traditional English rendition;You omit the words "against us" in the text at hand. Forgiving the
>this is of course used in its gnomic sense, stating a general truth: in
>Christian theology, Mankind is fallen and sinful; we 'do ill, sin, trespass'
>from birth to death, past, present, and future. So yes, sin is indeed a
>"periodically recurrent action" in fallen Mankind. In such circumstances,
>forgiveness must also be viewed as a general, ongoing process.
trespasses of those who do (or have done) ill to us is one thing. Forgiving
the trespasses of those who do ill from birth to death (being fallen)...
that is quite another.
- This discussion concerned, among other things, the interpretation of
Tolkien's pencilled markings above the form _úcarer_ in At. V
(VT43:12), with the suggestion of Patrick Wynne in _VT_ that they were
and indication of Tolkien's considering changing it to *_úcarir_ (the
expected aorist form) being questioned, and other interpretations,
including past-tense (i.e., *_úcárer_) and plural nominal forms.
I would like to point out that Tolkien's contemporary Sindarin
translation of the line in question employs the form _gerir_ (VT44:21),
which certainly looks like an aorist verb, and does not look either
like a Sindarin past-tense or a Sindarin plural noun.