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Re: -Vndo

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  • gentlebeldin
    ... Er... yes, the whole thread seems to be about verb stems + a noun ending _-ndo_. :-) My point is (agreeing with Ales Bican, mostly): The origin of the
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 29, 2002
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      Patrick Wynne commented:

      > [I'm not quite sure what point Hans is trying to make regarding
      > _ulunde_ 'flood' (V:396 s.v. ULU- 'pour, flow') here, but this noun
      > appears to be formed from the verb stem _ulu-_ 'flow' + a noun
      > ending _-nde_, just as the noun _arcande_ 'petition' (in the Sub
      > Tuum, VT44:8) is from _arca-_ 'pray' + _-nde_.

      Er... yes, the whole thread seems to be about verb stems + a noun
      ending _-ndo_. :-) My point is (agreeing with Ales Bican, mostly):
      The origin of the endings _-ndo_ and _-nde_ are the primitive endings
      _-no_ and _-ne_ (both vowels with macrons) for active/masculine and
      passive/feminine nouns, respectively. The strengthening -n- > -nd-
      does not happen after long vowels: _onoone_ "sister" from NO- (V:422,
      sorry, paperback), after diphtongs: _fuine_ "deep shadow" from PHUY-
      (V:426), after consonant: _verno_ "husband" from BES- (V:391).
      The endings _-no_ and _-on_ could both be related to NO-/ONO-
      (create, beget), that's why the latter is used also for genitives.
      The endings were appended to primitive verb forms (aorist stem or
      bare root), not to a past tense, imho.

      There are other pairs of such endings (masculine/active versus
      feminine/passive/abstract) _-mo_ vs. _-me_, and possibly _-so_ vs. _-
      se_. The latter two may be hard to recognize now in some cases,
      because of the phonological changes to _-ro_ and _-re_ after vocals.
      Other forms changed as well: _-me_ after final stem consonant "k"
      regularly changes: _-kme_ > _-ngwe_. Examples: *rakme > _rangwe_ (RAK-
      "reach", V:427), *tekme > _tengwa_ "letter" (TEK- "draw", V: 437).
      The forms with "o" mean active nouns (logical subjects of the
      corresponding verbs) and thus became agentive endings.

      Hans
    • David Kiltz
      ... Thanks for the pointer. Don t be sorry, that is exactly the evidence I was looking for ! That is why I asked. So, a derivation _-Vn-lá_ probably isn t
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 29, 2002
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        On Dienstag, Juli 30, 2002, at 12:03 Uhr, gentlebeldin wrote:

        > I don't believe in a development -nl- > -nd-, sorry! That would become
        > -ll- by assimilation, cf. NEN- (water): *nenle > _nelle_ (brook).

        Thanks for the pointer. Don't be sorry, that is exactly the evidence I
        was looking for ! That is why I asked.
        So, a derivation _-Vn-lá_ probably isn't possible.

        > I don't think the agentive suffix has to do with past tense. ULU-
        > (pour): the past tense (intr.) is _ulle_ without any "n", but there's
        > _ulunde_ (flood).
        > BTW, there's no aorist stem here, the suffix is immediately joined
        > with the root.

        Well, according to what you said above about the assimilation of _n+l_ >
        _ll_ I think _ulle_ is < *_ul-ne_. The notion of "past" resides in the
        _n_.

        > BTW, I can't imagine a root STIR- retaining the initial cluster -st-.
        > I think it would become _sir-_ in Q and _thir-_ (or _ther-_?) in S.

        Neither can I. However, I think it would survive inside a word. So
        *_ELEN-STIR-NÉ_ > *_elesstir-ne_ > *_elestirne.
        Just like Patrick notes further below:

        > As for a root
        > *STIR-, certainly initial _*st-_ became _s-_ in Quenya (e.g.,
        > _*staknâ_ > Q. _sanka_ 'cleft, split', V:388 s.v. STAK- 'split,
        > insert'), but this consonant cluster could be retained in medial
        > position, e.g., Q. _sandastan_ 'shield-barrier' < _*thandâ_ 'shield'
        > + _*stama-_ 'bar, exclude' (UT:282 n.16). -- Patrick Wynne]


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gentlebeldin
        ... You re right. And I located David s presumable source: A hypothetical root *STIR ( brow ?) as an explanation for the attested names _Elestirne_
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 30, 2002
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          Patrick Wynne objected:

          > As for a root
          > *STIR-, certainly initial _*st-_ became _s-_ in Quenya (e.g.,
          > _*staknâ_ > Q. _sanka_ 'cleft, split', V:388 s.v. STAK- 'split,
          > insert'), but this consonant cluster could be retained in medial
          > position

          You're right. And I located David's presumable source: A hypothetical
          root *STIR ("brow"?) as an explanation for the attested names
          _Elestirne_ ("star-brow") and _Carnistir_ ("ruddy face"?) was
          discussed in the Tolklang messages 12.65 and 20.41. The latter became
          _Caranthir_ in Sindarin, as was to be expected.

          Hans

          [Thanks for the clarification. It perhaps goes without saying that
          *STIR -- if it existed -- would probably derive from TIR- 'watch, guard'
          via s-prefixion; compare STAR- 'stiff' and TÁRAG- *'tough, stiff', SNAS-
          *'point' and NAS- 'point, sharp end', etc. in the _Etymologies_.
          -- Patrick Wynne]
        • Ales Bican
          ... **Yes, we have. However, it does not necessarily rule out _-nde_ as being a counterpart of _-ndo_. For istance, we have _-o_ and we treat it like a
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 30, 2002
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            David Kiltz wrote:

            > >By the way, it is known that _-nde_ is a feminine counterpart of _-ndo_
            > >(see _Therinde_, PM:333).
            >
            > Yes, but we also have _melisse_ corresponding to _melindo_ [V:372, sub
            > MEL-].

            **Yes, we have. However, it does not necessarily rule out _-nde_
            as being a counterpart of _-ndo_. For istance, we have _-o_ and
            we treat it like a counterpart of _-e_. Yet the feminine equivalent
            of _tavaro_ "dryad" is given as _tavaril_ (LR:391, s.v. TAWAR).


            Ales Bican

            --
            Mi dissero che e quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
            i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
            e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
          • pa2rick
            ... Some additional evidence: In Carl Hostetter s presentation of linguistic notes excluded from The Shibboleth of Feanor as published in _The Peoples of
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 31, 2002
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              In post #162 Hans wrote:

              > A hypothetical
              > root *STIR ("brow"?) as an explanation for the attested names
              > _Elestirne_ ("star-brow") and _Carnistir_ ("ruddy face"?) was
              > discussed in the Tolklang messages 12.65 and 20.41. The latter became
              > _Caranthir_ in Sindarin, as was to be expected.

              Some additional evidence:

              In Carl Hostetter's presentation of linguistic notes excluded from
              "The Shibboleth of Feanor" as published in _The Peoples of
              Middle-earth_ (VT41:7-10), there is a group of notes on the
              "Sindarizing" of the names of the sons of Feanor. These notes
              include the following etymology of S. _Caranthir_:

              "[In] Sindarin _carani-_ > _caran_ + _thîr_ face (< _stîrê_)
              [?substituted] for Q. _car'ni-stîr(e)_. So _Caranthir_. [Marginal
              note: _Carastir_?]"

              -- Patrick Wynne
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