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Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: [LDB] Analysis of _Elen Síla ..._

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  • Kai MacTane
    ... Interesting point. Though I think this means that nearly any noun in ELDA would be entered at least twice: once in definite form, and then again in
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 26, 2002
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      At 7/24/02 09:59 PM , Boris Shapiro wrote:

      >KM> [A]: Not necessary (or possible) in Quenya; no indefinite article
      >KM> exists in Quenya. Necessary in translation into English to conform
      >KM> with English grammar, which requires articles.
      >
      >That is why any noun as a syntactic object in ELDA should have as one
      >of its descriptions the indication of its definite/indefinite status,
      >linked to the word it is defined by (not necessarily and article), and
      >Q _i_ (when used as the article) should be linked to the noun it
      >describes; the same applies to virtually any word that defines
      >another.

      Interesting point. Though I think this means that nearly any noun in ELDA
      would be entered at least twice: once in definite form, and then again in
      indefinite form. (After all, most nouns can be used both definitely and
      indefinitely.)

      >That's why any object (presently, a word-object) should not be stored
      >independently from its context (on which he obviously does depend),
      >and share a date-description with the text-object it is included in.
      >Thus one should be able to search for every case of the word "elen"
      >used with chronology and other contextual conditions for search.

      Ouch! While I agree that a context-dependent database would be an
      interesting and probably very useful thing, I must admit I'm a bit confused
      about how one would use it. Would searches be things like: "_elen_, where
      used as subject (not object) and only where indefinite", and so on? (I can
      sort of see how that search should at least return "_elen síla lumenn'
      omentielvo_", while not returning "_Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima_".)

      At the moment, QH's means of dealing with context is simply to provide
      references to all attested uses of the element in the "Attestations" field.

      >Next, a lexical word-object should definitely have a vocabulary
      >description for referential purposes. That was outlined in your lines
      >three paragraphs above. Probably we'll need a dictionary module.

      Which, to figure out homonyms, will need to be able to carry out some
      actual syntactic analysis. (Which you do explicitly call for elsewhere in
      your post.) Unfortunately, I'm afraid I don't know how to get software to
      do that, and I'm especially wary of the concept of getting software to be
      able to carry out accurate syntactic analysis on poetic material.

      >And so on. I hope that gives you some idea of the nested structure we
      >need. Objects in objects in various hypostases with different
      >descriptions.

      It does give me some idea of it, yes. I think that what you propose is an
      impressive and worthwhile project, but it is one which is utterly beyond my
      abilities. I'm sorry.

      >Kai, forgive me for skipping most of your own analysis, I've seen that
      >in some aspects I simply repeat your one, but I've tried to present it
      >in a more systematic and complex way.

      No problem there; it was, after all, just an example analysis. I think it
      served its purpose, and you did right to skip large chunks of it.

      --Kai MacTane
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      "Then, when they spill the demon seed
      Turn and face into the wind.
      All along you still believed...
      Believed you were immune."
      --Thomas Dolby,
      "The Flat Earth"
    • Kai MacTane
      ... What sorts of search queries do you envision? Can you give me some examples? --Kai MacTane ... In another life I see you/As an angel flying high, And the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 26, 2002
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        At 7/26/02 01:09 AM , Boris Shapiro wrote:

        >For me that seems to be a regrettable way of development. That
        >abolishes every use (every extended search query) that I've imagined.
        >What is left then? Just basic number/gender/case descriptions? Is this
        >price good enough, and for what?

        What sorts of search queries do you envision? Can you give me some examples?

        --Kai MacTane
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        "In another life I see you/As an angel flying high,
        And the hands of time will free you/You will cast your chains aside,
        And the dawn will come and kiss away
        Every tear that's ever fallen from your eyes...
        --Concrete Blonde,
        "Caroline"
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