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Re: [Lambengolmor] [LDB] Elements or phrases?

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  • Kai MacTane
    ... I suppose we could add a category somewhere for phrases . I agree that sytactic analysis should be left to the humans, not machines -- I m honestly not
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 26 12:45 PM
      At 7/24/02 02:03 PM , Beregond. Anders Stenström wrote:

      > The general idea of having collocutions registered in the
      >database seems sound. But as Rich Alderson's reply indicated,
      >this could easily become too theory-dependent to look quite
      >good to me. It seems to me that the best idea would be to register
      >all 'contexts', from two-word constructions like _Minas Tirith_ up
      >to long texts like "Namárie" (with full references, or 'attestation
      >details' for each), and then link words to all contexts they occur in.
      >The syntactical analysis can be left to fora outside the database.

      I suppose we could add a category somewhere for "phrases". I agree that
      sytactic analysis should be left to the humans, not machines -- I'm
      honestly not sure they can handle it at all yet; I know I personally can't
      make them do it. (Consider the current state of Babelfish, which has had
      years of research and the efforts of a large number of people poured into
      it. It can give you the general idea of what something means, but it's
      painfully obvious that it's not about to put professional translators out
      of business any time soon, *especially* regarding poetic and artistic works.)

      --Kai MacTane
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      "Deadly angels for reality and passion..."
      --Shriekback,
      "Gunning for the
      Buddha"
    • Kai MacTane
      ... Interesting point. Though I think this means that nearly any noun in ELDA would be entered at least twice: once in definite form, and then again in
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 26 1:28 PM
        At 7/24/02 09:59 PM , Boris Shapiro wrote:

        >KM> [A]: Not necessary (or possible) in Quenya; no indefinite article
        >KM> exists in Quenya. Necessary in translation into English to conform
        >KM> with English grammar, which requires articles.
        >
        >That is why any noun as a syntactic object in ELDA should have as one
        >of its descriptions the indication of its definite/indefinite status,
        >linked to the word it is defined by (not necessarily and article), and
        >Q _i_ (when used as the article) should be linked to the noun it
        >describes; the same applies to virtually any word that defines
        >another.

        Interesting point. Though I think this means that nearly any noun in ELDA
        would be entered at least twice: once in definite form, and then again in
        indefinite form. (After all, most nouns can be used both definitely and
        indefinitely.)

        >That's why any object (presently, a word-object) should not be stored
        >independently from its context (on which he obviously does depend),
        >and share a date-description with the text-object it is included in.
        >Thus one should be able to search for every case of the word "elen"
        >used with chronology and other contextual conditions for search.

        Ouch! While I agree that a context-dependent database would be an
        interesting and probably very useful thing, I must admit I'm a bit confused
        about how one would use it. Would searches be things like: "_elen_, where
        used as subject (not object) and only where indefinite", and so on? (I can
        sort of see how that search should at least return "_elen síla lumenn'
        omentielvo_", while not returning "_Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima_".)

        At the moment, QH's means of dealing with context is simply to provide
        references to all attested uses of the element in the "Attestations" field.

        >Next, a lexical word-object should definitely have a vocabulary
        >description for referential purposes. That was outlined in your lines
        >three paragraphs above. Probably we'll need a dictionary module.

        Which, to figure out homonyms, will need to be able to carry out some
        actual syntactic analysis. (Which you do explicitly call for elsewhere in
        your post.) Unfortunately, I'm afraid I don't know how to get software to
        do that, and I'm especially wary of the concept of getting software to be
        able to carry out accurate syntactic analysis on poetic material.

        >And so on. I hope that gives you some idea of the nested structure we
        >need. Objects in objects in various hypostases with different
        >descriptions.

        It does give me some idea of it, yes. I think that what you propose is an
        impressive and worthwhile project, but it is one which is utterly beyond my
        abilities. I'm sorry.

        >Kai, forgive me for skipping most of your own analysis, I've seen that
        >in some aspects I simply repeat your one, but I've tried to present it
        >in a more systematic and complex way.

        No problem there; it was, after all, just an example analysis. I think it
        served its purpose, and you did right to skip large chunks of it.

        --Kai MacTane
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        "Then, when they spill the demon seed
        Turn and face into the wind.
        All along you still believed...
        Believed you were immune."
        --Thomas Dolby,
        "The Flat Earth"
      • Kai MacTane
        ... What sorts of search queries do you envision? Can you give me some examples? --Kai MacTane ... In another life I see you/As an angel flying high, And the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 26 2:13 PM
          At 7/26/02 01:09 AM , Boris Shapiro wrote:

          >For me that seems to be a regrettable way of development. That
          >abolishes every use (every extended search query) that I've imagined.
          >What is left then? Just basic number/gender/case descriptions? Is this
          >price good enough, and for what?

          What sorts of search queries do you envision? Can you give me some examples?

          --Kai MacTane
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          "In another life I see you/As an angel flying high,
          And the hands of time will free you/You will cast your chains aside,
          And the dawn will come and kiss away
          Every tear that's ever fallen from your eyes...
          --Concrete Blonde,
          "Caroline"
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