Re: Annwfn, Rhiannon, Arawn & Morris-Jones
> The Welsh word _annwfn_ does have a controversial etymology as bothIndeed. A one-on-one Welsh -> English transposition would be very very unreliable.
> elements have multiple meanings, e.g. _an-_ 'un-' or 'in;' _dwfn_
> 'deep' or 'world,' and so on (See Geiradur Pryfysgol Cymru (GPC)
> entries _an-_, _annwfn_, and _dwfn_). So we could have 'unworld,'
> 'undeep,' 'inworld,' 'indeep.' And the interpretations of what these
> glosses mean is another contentious point.
> I prefer 'unworld' (otherworld?) and 'inworld' as these seemI'd also vote for these, esp. 'inworld', as it would agree with the Irish notions of the _sidh_ in the hills of the country, and then Pwyll's hunt from Arberth directly to Annwfn's realm.
> to capture
> what (little) we know of Celtic religion from the indigenous writings
> and the archeological temple finds.
> I believe that these multiple intrepretations would not have been lostMea culpa. That was an imperfect translation into English of something I found in a book translated from French into Russian :-(
> on Tolkien, and perhaps both _udыn_ and _annыn_ were both
> influenced by Welsh _annwfn_.
> Rhiannon does not mean as Pavel has suggested 'mistress,'
>rather most scholars agree that it is derived from _*rigantona_.RIG- has the meaning of 'crown' in the Etymologies, and I was referring to that.
> _rig_ is not a 'crown' but 'king' (see GPC entry _rhi_).
I was just about to mention _rhi_ when your most excellent letter came. There's also _rhiain_ (pl. _rhianedd_) 'maiden'. I fancy it might have a connection to the root.
> Rhiannon would then mean something like 'great one(feminine) whoI fancy that was the etymology I was referring to, albeit indirectly and thus falsely.
> rules). Notice also that this etymology (or one similar) would have
> been available to Tolkien (see MacCulloch "Celtic Mythology"
> pg. 95, in
> _Mythology of All Races_ vol. 3 1918, where he glosses _Rhiannon_ as
> 'great queen' which is essentially the same etymology).
And Carl wrote previously:
>> may it be noted that the realm of _Annwfn_ as portrayed in _PwyllThat's precisely what appears to have happened.
>> Pendefig Dyfed_ is of no association to 'hell' at all.
>True enough. But 1) later associations often are quite altered from the
>primitive/formative semantics indicated by etymology;
>and 2) Tolkien did not reject Jones's derivation. What the Welsh madeBut I find it rather more probable that Tolkien would refer to the text of PPD and the semantics of the words therein if he were referring to ancient Welsh/Celtic culture. In our case, it may rather be the modern meaning that is irrelevant. Ot vice versa. Both are possible.
>of the word/name they inherited as _Annw(f)n_ has no necessary bearing
>on what the word's antecedents originally meant.
>Remember the conceit (expressed perhaps most fully in _TheInteresting observation. This, to me, would imply the notion of an Underworld in Elvish culture. If that means Angband, then we might indeed talk about _Annw(f)n_ as 'hell'. This would then show a word-play on two levels - the purely phonetic level (where _Annw(f)n_ would be close to _Ann�n_, and refer to the Western Otherworld - i.e. have its connotaions of _Y Mabinogi_) and the etymological level (and thus refer to 'hell' and be rather close to _Ud�n_).
>Drowning of Anad�ne_ in _Sauron Defeated_) that while Men in northwestern
>Europe had the truest form of the mythology, it was still much changed, even
>corrupted. Welsh _Annw(f)n_, by this conceit, may be a dim, much-blurred
>memory of the Eldarin "underworld".
Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...
'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
--JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_
- I wrote:
> Tolkien, I believe, may have been influenced by Morris-Jones, but heCarl replied:
> certainly would not have accepted Morris-Jones' etymologies blindly.
> Indeed! Which if anything makes it all the more significant thatWhich is significant for _ud�n_, but Tolkien's acceptance of
> Tolkien nonetheless accepted Jones's etymology in this case, at least
> to the extent of echoing it in his own notes.
Morris-Jones' eytomogy here doesn't perclude Tolkien's use of the other
interpretations of _Annwfn_ for other Elvish words, e.g. _ann�n_.
Indeed it seems very Tolkien to have two words of Elvish that have
fallen together in meaning in Human languages to explain the various
interpretations of the Welsh _Annwfn_.
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- On 5/31/02 9:32 AM, "Candon McLean" <candon3@...> wrote:
> Which is significant for _udûn_, but Tolkien's acceptance ofOh, I agree, wholeheartedly. I never meant to imply that there could be _no_
> Morris-Jones' eytomogy here doesn't perclude Tolkien's use of the other
> interpretations of _Annwfn_ for other Elvish words, e.g. _annûn_.
intended relationship between S. _Annûn_ and Welsh _Annw(f)n_.
But if there is, it must be a different sort of relationship than that
proposed for _Udûn_ (< *_Utubnu_) and _Annw(f)n_ (< *_n-dub-n-_). It is just
conceivable that *_n-dub-n-_, the ancient antecedent of _Annw(f)n_ (as
corrobated by cognates in other languages), could have some relationship
with the Eldarin forms; but it would be much harder to argue that either
_Annw(f)n_ or *_n-dub-n_ could have been formed upon S. _Annûn_, Q.
_Andúne_, or their antecedents (how, for instance, could we account for the
_f_ of _Annwfn_?)
| Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
| ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
| Ars longa, vita brevis. |
| The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
| "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
| such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |