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Re: [LDB] "Canonical" Quenya and Quettahostanie

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... Not adding inauthentic forms would make it easier, but so would not adding inauthentic analysis, inauthentic singular forms, inauthentic undeclined
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 25, 2002
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      --- In lambengolmor@y..., Beregond. Anders Stenström <beregond@u...> wrote:

      > Carl Hostetter replied to Bill Welden:

      >> Second: inclusion of inauthentic forms will require a vetting process
      >> far more complicated than that needed if only authentic forms are
      >> permitted.
      >
      > I agree totally: it would be to invite complications. Keeping the
      > project as uncomplicated as possible makes it more likely to actually
      > come off.
      >
      > Meneg suilaid,
      >
      > Beregond

      Not adding "inauthentic" forms would make it easier, but so would not
      adding "inauthentic" analysis, "inauthentic" singular forms, "inauthentic"
      undeclined forms, "inauthentic" synonyms, "inauthentic" antonyms, etc..
      It would enlarge the possibility of this project ever coming to fruit,
      but it would also make it much poorer. The "vetting process" would
      be difficult, but the making of linguistical databases is, by definition,
      _extremely hard_. The vetting process would be eased by adding,
      to all non-Tolkienian forms, complete analysis and basis for the "new
      words" from attested writings.

      Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
      kari.j.tikka@...
      http://www.geocities.com/petristikka/
    • John Garth
      ... That is why, as an initial stage (which would itself take a very long time), no such analysis or forms ought to be included in a Tolkienian linguistic
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 25, 2002
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        on 25/7/02 1:22 pm, Petri Tikka at kari.j.tikka@... wrote:

        > Not adding "inauthentic" forms would make it easier, but so would not
        > adding "inauthentic" analysis, "inauthentic" singular forms, "inauthentic"
        > undeclined forms, "inauthentic" synonyms, "inauthentic" antonyms, etc..
        > It would enlarge the possibility of this project ever coming to fruit,
        > but it would also make it much poorer.

        That is why, as an initial stage (which would itself take a very long time),
        no such analysis or forms ought to be included in a Tolkienian linguistic
        database. Surely the best methodology is to gather as much data as possible
        before extrapolating from it.

        Anyone so inclined could provide analysis and extrapolation elsewhere. That
        way, you would have the most reliable catalogue of the Tolkienian languages
        possible; and elsewhere you would have commentaries plainly distinguishable
        from it, whose authors could take responsibility for their own work.

        In my abortive database I included, at the most, an indication that a word
        was, for example, a plural form or a noun when it was (to my mind)
        indisputable from the context but would be unclear out of context. (This was
        relatively easy, in the vast majority of cases, because the context was
        generally English rather than, say, Quenya.)

        The process of creating a thesaurus, which _Quettahostanie_ appears
        encompass, seems to me quite alien to the aims of a linguistic catalogue,
        and should also be kept separate.

        John Garth
      • Kai MacTane
        ... It s certainly possible for us to simply start loading attested Tolkienian forms into QH as it stands, and not bother with compounded/coined
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 26, 2002
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          At 7/25/02 10:07 AM , John Garth wrote:

          >That is why, as an initial stage (which would itself take a very long time),
          >no such analysis or forms ought to be included in a Tolkienian linguistic
          >database. Surely the best methodology is to gather as much data as possible
          >before extrapolating from it.

          It's certainly possible for us to simply start loading attested Tolkienian
          forms into QH as it stands, and not bother with compounded/coined
          (post-Tolkienian) material until later (if at all). Just because the
          capability is there doesn't mean we have to use it immediately. However:

          >Anyone so inclined could provide analysis and extrapolation elsewhere. That
          >way, you would have the most reliable catalogue of the Tolkienian languages
          >possible; and elsewhere you would have commentaries plainly distinguishable
          >from it, whose authors could take responsibility for their own work.

          There is a certain level of utility in having things centralized, and hence
          easily searchable through one interface. Granted, this is of no particular
          use for the academic community. But for the Quenya-composition folks, it
          would be nice to be able to search for attested Tolkienian words *and*
          newer coinages all at once. (Also note that QH will display Tolkien's forms
          higher up in the results than the non-Tolkien forms, all other things being
          equal -- for more details, see the guide to search results in the
          documentation. Essentially, it depends on just what the user enters as
          search terms, but attestation level is the second-level sort criterion.)

          >The process of creating a thesaurus, which _Quettahostanie_ appears
          >encompass, seems to me quite alien to the aims of a linguistic catalogue,
          >and should also be kept separate.

          I'm a bit confused by how QH acts as a thesaurus -- do you mean the listing
          of synonyms? I had actually intended that to be a bit more of a research
          tool; there are places where it can be useful to compare and contrast
          different words that refer to similar or identical things.

          --Kai MacTane
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          "Wind in wings,/Two angels falling
          To die like this/With a last kiss..."
          --Siouxsie and the
          Banshees,
          "Face to Face"
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