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Re: [Lambengolmor] ERRATA - VT44:9 ullume

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  • Alex Grigny de Castro
    ... Thanks for your explanation, Patrick. Still, the whole sense of _nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_ seems to indicate to me that _ullume_ should be
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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      >
      >[_The Lost Road_ p. 72 does not gloss _ullume_ as 'not...forever'.
      >The entire line from Fíriel's song is as follows:
      >
      >_nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
      >'But my heart resteth not here for ever'
      >
      >Here 'resteth not' glosses _úye sére_, in which _úye_ is the negative
      >form of _ye_ 'is' (also in Fíriel's song) and _sére_ is either the noun
      >'rest' (V:385 s.v. SED-) or a stem form of the verb 'to rest'; a case can
      >be made for either interpretation. In any event, _ullume_ thus technically
      >corresponds to 'for ever' in Tolkien's English gloss, although it almost
      >certainly begins with a negative element and must literally mean 'not
      >ever, not always'.
      >
      >-- Patrick Wynne]

      Thanks for your explanation, Patrick. Still, the whole sense of
      _nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
      seems to indicate to me that _ullume_ should be translated "not forever",
      as it is preceded by a pause in the Q. sentence (but not in the english one)
      "but my heart does not rest here, [pause] not for ever" == "but my heart
      does not rest here for ever"

      Alex

      =====Alex Grigny de Castro
      mailto:a.grigny@...
      http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
      XelaG
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      [Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
      i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
      element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'? Tolkien's
      gloss of this line in V:72 is not, however, literal; hence you
      yourself have to reword it as "but my heart does not rest here,
      [pause] not for ever" in order to get across the full, _literal_
      meaning of the Quenya. Tolkien's own gloss, with 'for ever'
      instead of 'not for ever', probably results from a desire to avoid
      using a double negative, a real 'no-no' (!) in English. -- Patrick
      Wynne]
    • Alex Grigny de Castro
      ... Yes, this is exactly my point. So a stand-alone translation of _ullume_ (as in VT44:9) should be not for ever imho. Alex === Alex Grigny de Castro
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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        At 16:45 21/07/2002 +0200, you wrote:

        >[Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
        >i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
        >element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'?

        Yes, this is exactly my point. So a stand-alone translation of _ullume_
        (as in VT44:9) should be "not for ever" imho.

        Alex


        ===
        Alex Grigny de Castro
        mailto:a.grigny@...
        http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
        XelaG
        mailto:xelag@...
        http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


        ["Not ever, not always" means exactly the same thing as "not forever".
        "Ever" here means "forever": From Webster's Revised Unabridged
        Dictionary -- "2. At all times; through all time; always; forever." Carl]
      • Alex Grigny de Castro
        VT44:9 quote: the same final element occurs in _ullume_ for ever (possibly lit. not-ever, not-always ) [...] unquote. This for ever is what I am
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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          VT44:9 quote:
          "the same final element occurs in _ullume_ 'for ever' (possibly lit.
          'not-ever, not-always') [...]"
          unquote.

          This 'for ever' is what I am refering to, Carl, not to the further gloss
          which is correct. Anyway, I now understand what is meant if not written to
          my satisfaction in my poor knowledge of the Albion lingo :)

          Alex

          ===
          Alex Grigny de Castro
          mailto:a.grigny@...
          http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
          XelaG
          mailto:xelag@...
          http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot

          [OK, I see your point. The wording in _VT_ does perhaps silently import
          more than it should: the knowledge that by writing _ullume_ 'for ever'
          we are conveying Tolkien's gloss, which needs to be understood as not a
          literal gloss. Carl]
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