RE: Initial _ly-_ and enclitics
Petri Tikka wrote:
> In message 14958 of Elvish Linguistics List Helge K.I wonder what Carl has to say on the subject :-)
> Fauskanger tells us
> of a a signature by Tolkien below which reads the words_nai
> elen siluva lyenna_.
> The first reaction to a the word _lyenna_ would be thatI disagree. Elision in Quenya only seems to appear in the cases of two
> initial palatalized
> Ls would be allowed in Quenya. But I am not quite sure. It may be
> that it is an enclitic of _elyenna_, the initial vowel
> dissapearing because
> of the final vowel in the preceeding word. _elye_ is attested
> as emphatic
> 2. person sg. pronoun in LR:398 and R:67.
identical vowels near the word border. There numerous examples of
different vowels on word borders without elision. These include, for
example, _ómaryo airetari-lírinen_ in LR:398. Besides, if elision were
to happen at all, it would happen on the first vowel - _*siluv'
> It would make sense forIMHO it wouldn't, since the prefixed vowel is generally the more
> the initial vowel to dissapear, since its only function is for the
> of the 2. person sg. pronoun.
important element in the structure of the emphatic pronoun. In fact it
is the prefixed vowel which makes it recognizable as an emphatic
> But one may wonder why initialThen I do not see a reason for _#ly-_ to be forbidden. Phonotactical
> L wouldn't be allowed. Other initial palatalized consonants
> are allowed.
constraints seem to be generalized in languages. Dental palatalized
sonorants are clearly allowed (vide initial _ny_). Ergo - _#ly-_ is a
On the other hand, the stress in _hiruvalye_ falls on the penultimate
syllable, which makes us wonder whether _ly_ is not indeed a cluster.
This can however be explained if we suppose that _Namárië_ exemplifies
Third Age Quenya where we at leats know for sure that _qu_ is a cluster
phonetically, albeit not phonologically. There is no reason to assume
that the same cannot be true of palatalized consonants.
Pavel Iosad pavel_iosad@...
'I am a philologist, and thus a misunderstood man'
--JRR Tolkien, _The Notion Club Papers_ms of Service.
- --- In lambengolmor@y..., "Petri Tikka" <kari.j.tikka@w...> wrote:
> The first reaction to the word _lyenna_ would be that initialPetri, you'll remember I didn't share this opinion. But I have to take
> palatalized Ls would be allowed in Quenya. But I am not quite sure. It
> may be that it is an enclitic of _elyenna_, the initial vowel
> disappearing because of the final vowel in the preceding word.
into consideration new (for me!) material, and now I think you are
right. In XI:363 (it's the Harper Collins paperback) we read about the
"de/le as pronominal elements in the 2nd person". This explains the
Sindarin pronoun _dîn_, btw.
We also read "dj became ly medially in Quenya". I don't think the
"medially" was stressed without any need: Initial dj (or DY in the
Etymologies) did NOT change into _ly_! (cf. V:394, DYEL-, Q _yelma_)
Since the word _lyenna_ obviously is pronominal 2nd person, the
_dj_>_ly_ must have been medial, after some elided vowel, indeed.
- Hans commented on Petri Tikka's suggestion that _lyenna_
may be an elided form of _elyenna_:
> In XI:363 (it's the Harper Collins paperback) we read about the**This does not, however, necessarily mean that _ly_ in _lyenna_
> "de/le as pronominal elements in the 2nd person". This explains the
> Sindarin pronoun _dîn_, btw.
> We also read "dj became ly medially in Quenya". I don't think the
> "medially" was stressed without any need: Initial dj (or DY in the
> Etymologies) did NOT change into _ly_! (cf. V:394, DYEL-, Q _yelma_)
> Since the word _lyenna_ obviously is pronominal 2nd person, the
> _dj_>_ly_ must have been medial, after some elided vowel, indeed.
has to be medial. As you cited, there is a variantion between de/le
in the 2nd person and _lyenna_ may well be from the element le,
not de. I am not sure where Tolkien intended the variant de to be
realized, because both pronominal suffixes _-l_ and _-le_ (e.g.
in _óle_, see VT43:29) seem to be from le. Perhaps he wanted
to explain _-lda_ "your" (in Aragorn's farewell _Arwen vanimalda,
namárie!_, LotR 1st ed.).
Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)