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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    Just FYI: Patrick Wynne has agreed to help me moderate this list. --
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 20, 2002
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      Just FYI: Patrick Wynne has agreed to help me moderate this list.


      --

      |======================================================================|
      | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
      | |
      | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
      | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
      | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
      | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
      | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
      |======================================================================|
    • Alex Grigny de Castro
      Carl, VT44:9, in the entry for _illume_, glosses _ullume_ for ever (possibly lit. not ever, not always ) . The Lost Road p. 72 translates it with not ...
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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        Carl,

        VT44:9, in the entry for _illume_, glosses _ullume_ "for ever (possibly
        lit. 'not ever, not always')". The Lost Road p. 72 translates it with "not
        ... forever". This seems to be a typo in VT.

        Alex

        ===
        Alex Grigny de Castro
        mailto:a.grigny@...
        http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
        XelaG
        mailto:xelag@...
        http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


        [_The Lost Road_ p. 72 does not gloss _ullume_ as 'not...forever'.
        The entire line from F�riel's song is as follows:

        _nan �ye s�re indo-ninya s�men, ullume_
        'But my heart resteth not here for ever'

        Here 'resteth not' glosses _�ye s�re_, in which _�ye_ is the negative
        form of _ye_ 'is' (also in F�riel's song) and _s�re_ is either the noun
        'rest' (V:385 s.v. SED-) or a stem form of the verb 'to rest'; a case can
        be made for either interpretation. In any event, _ullume_ thus technically
        corresponds to 'for ever' in Tolkien's English gloss, although it almost
        certainly begins with a negative element and must literally mean 'not
        ever, not always'.

        -- Patrick Wynne]
      • Alex Grigny de Castro
        ... Thanks for your explanation, Patrick. Still, the whole sense of _nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_ seems to indicate to me that _ullume_ should be
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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          >
          >[_The Lost Road_ p. 72 does not gloss _ullume_ as 'not...forever'.
          >The entire line from Fíriel's song is as follows:
          >
          >_nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
          >'But my heart resteth not here for ever'
          >
          >Here 'resteth not' glosses _úye sére_, in which _úye_ is the negative
          >form of _ye_ 'is' (also in Fíriel's song) and _sére_ is either the noun
          >'rest' (V:385 s.v. SED-) or a stem form of the verb 'to rest'; a case can
          >be made for either interpretation. In any event, _ullume_ thus technically
          >corresponds to 'for ever' in Tolkien's English gloss, although it almost
          >certainly begins with a negative element and must literally mean 'not
          >ever, not always'.
          >
          >-- Patrick Wynne]

          Thanks for your explanation, Patrick. Still, the whole sense of
          _nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume_
          seems to indicate to me that _ullume_ should be translated "not forever",
          as it is preceded by a pause in the Q. sentence (but not in the english one)
          "but my heart does not rest here, [pause] not for ever" == "but my heart
          does not rest here for ever"

          Alex

          =====Alex Grigny de Castro
          mailto:a.grigny@...
          http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
          XelaG
          mailto:xelag@...
          http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


          [Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
          i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
          element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'? Tolkien's
          gloss of this line in V:72 is not, however, literal; hence you
          yourself have to reword it as "but my heart does not rest here,
          [pause] not for ever" in order to get across the full, _literal_
          meaning of the Quenya. Tolkien's own gloss, with 'for ever'
          instead of 'not for ever', probably results from a desire to avoid
          using a double negative, a real 'no-no' (!) in English. -- Patrick
          Wynne]
        • Alex Grigny de Castro
          ... Yes, this is exactly my point. So a stand-alone translation of _ullume_ (as in VT44:9) should be not for ever imho. Alex === Alex Grigny de Castro
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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            At 16:45 21/07/2002 +0200, you wrote:

            >[Um, isn't this exactly what I said in my response quoted above,
            >i.e., that _ullume_ "almost certainly begins with a negative
            >element and must literally mean 'not ever, not always'?

            Yes, this is exactly my point. So a stand-alone translation of _ullume_
            (as in VT44:9) should be "not for ever" imho.

            Alex


            ===
            Alex Grigny de Castro
            mailto:a.grigny@...
            http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
            XelaG
            mailto:xelag@...
            http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot


            ["Not ever, not always" means exactly the same thing as "not forever".
            "Ever" here means "forever": From Webster's Revised Unabridged
            Dictionary -- "2. At all times; through all time; always; forever." Carl]
          • Alex Grigny de Castro
            VT44:9 quote: the same final element occurs in _ullume_ for ever (possibly lit. not-ever, not-always ) [...] unquote. This for ever is what I am
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 21, 2002
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              VT44:9 quote:
              "the same final element occurs in _ullume_ 'for ever' (possibly lit.
              'not-ever, not-always') [...]"
              unquote.

              This 'for ever' is what I am refering to, Carl, not to the further gloss
              which is correct. Anyway, I now understand what is meant if not written to
              my satisfaction in my poor knowledge of the Albion lingo :)

              Alex

              ===
              Alex Grigny de Castro
              mailto:a.grigny@...
              http://members.ams.chello.nl/a.grigny
              XelaG
              mailto:xelag@...
              http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot

              [OK, I see your point. The wording in _VT_ does perhaps silently import
              more than it should: the knowledge that by writing _ullume_ 'for ever'
              we are conveying Tolkien's gloss, which needs to be understood as not a
              literal gloss. Carl]
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