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Re: Quenya perfect active participle

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  • cgilson75
    I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the arrangement of the text does suggest that the This in the third sentence of the passage
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 12, 2008
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      I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the
      arrangement of the text does suggest that the "This" in the third
      sentence of the passage Thorsten quoted refers back to the first
      sentence. Of course these are somewhat rough phrases and not entirely
      grammatical as sentences, but I think the meaning of the third one is
      that _kárienwa_ is a rare past passive participle.

      The facet of the arrangement that suggests this is that the second
      sentence, "After intransitives often = participle active, _va-nwa_," is
      substantially indented from the rest of the text, as if Tolkien may
      have meant it as a sort of parenthetical note, with the beginning of
      the third sentence lined up horizontally with the first sentence, as
      though continuing the interrupted thought. But this is only a
      suggestion, since the alignment of the texts on the margin of the
      manuscript page is irregular. And it is clear that Tolkien composed
      these three sentences is in the order given, i.e. the second sentence
      is not a later insertion.

      Of the two possible interpretations of the ambiguous "This" in context,
      I think its reference to the passive rather than active examples
      preceding makes more logical sense as well; since the reason _va-nwa_
      can be understood in an active sense is because the verb is inherently
      intransitive. In other words the suffix _-nwa_ seems normally to add a
      passive sense, or "select" that sense from the two possibilities when
      the inherent meaning of the verb is transitive.

      I hope this is helpful.

      - Chris

      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles:
      >
      > "Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems
      > _-nwa, sinwa, s?na_ 'known, certain, ascertained'. After intransitives
      > often = active participle, _va-nwa_. This has a past form _kárienwa_
      > (rare)."
      >
      > As it is printed, 'this' seems to refer to the previously mentioned active
      > participle. However, given the style of Tolkien's notes, this may be an
      > accident and 'this' may in fact refer back to 'simple past participle
      > passive' at the beginning of the sentence. I wonder of anyone with access
      > to a copy of the original note could clarify if the text arrangement on
      > the original document can provide any clue as to what is meant here?
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > * Thorsten
      >
    • Hans Georg Lundahl
      I have another kind of clue, Thorsten. Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 14, 2008
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        I have another kind of clue, Thorsten.

        Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like "g�ngen, kommen" are "active" = intransitive, because the verb is intransitive and as such cannot have a personal passive.

        But if anyone with access to the original note has more to say, so be it.

        --
        Hans
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