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Quenya perfect active participle

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  • Thorsten Renk
    In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles: Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems _-nwa, sinwa,
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 11 2:11 AM
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      In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles:

      "Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems
      _-nwa, sinwa, sîna_ 'known, certain, ascertained'. After intransitives
      often = active participle, _va_nwa_. This has a past form _kárienwa_
      (rare)."

      As it is printed, 'this' seems to refer to the previously mentioned active
      participle. However, given the style of Tolkien's notes, this may be an
      accident and 'this' may in fact refer back to 'simple past participle
      passive' at the beginning of the sentence. I wonder of anyone with access
      to a copy of the original note could clarify if the text arrangement on
      the original document can provide any clue as to what is meant here?

      Thanks,

      * Thorsten
    • cgilson75
      I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the arrangement of the text does suggest that the This in the third sentence of the passage
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 12 11:07 AM
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        I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the
        arrangement of the text does suggest that the "This" in the third
        sentence of the passage Thorsten quoted refers back to the first
        sentence. Of course these are somewhat rough phrases and not entirely
        grammatical as sentences, but I think the meaning of the third one is
        that _kárienwa_ is a rare past passive participle.

        The facet of the arrangement that suggests this is that the second
        sentence, "After intransitives often = participle active, _va-nwa_," is
        substantially indented from the rest of the text, as if Tolkien may
        have meant it as a sort of parenthetical note, with the beginning of
        the third sentence lined up horizontally with the first sentence, as
        though continuing the interrupted thought. But this is only a
        suggestion, since the alignment of the texts on the margin of the
        manuscript page is irregular. And it is clear that Tolkien composed
        these three sentences is in the order given, i.e. the second sentence
        is not a later insertion.

        Of the two possible interpretations of the ambiguous "This" in context,
        I think its reference to the passive rather than active examples
        preceding makes more logical sense as well; since the reason _va-nwa_
        can be understood in an active sense is because the verb is inherently
        intransitive. In other words the suffix _-nwa_ seems normally to add a
        passive sense, or "select" that sense from the two possibilities when
        the inherent meaning of the verb is transitive.

        I hope this is helpful.

        - Chris

        --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles:
        >
        > "Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems
        > _-nwa, sinwa, s?na_ 'known, certain, ascertained'. After intransitives
        > often = active participle, _va-nwa_. This has a past form _kárienwa_
        > (rare)."
        >
        > As it is printed, 'this' seems to refer to the previously mentioned active
        > participle. However, given the style of Tolkien's notes, this may be an
        > accident and 'this' may in fact refer back to 'simple past participle
        > passive' at the beginning of the sentence. I wonder of anyone with access
        > to a copy of the original note could clarify if the text arrangement on
        > the original document can provide any clue as to what is meant here?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > * Thorsten
        >
      • Hans Georg Lundahl
        I have another kind of clue, Thorsten. Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 14 8:08 AM
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          I have another kind of clue, Thorsten.

          Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like "g�ngen, kommen" are "active" = intransitive, because the verb is intransitive and as such cannot have a personal passive.

          But if anyone with access to the original note has more to say, so be it.

          --
          Hans
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