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Re: General questions Re: Tolkien/Elvish

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  • dysert_a
    I have received an email from someone who has said my university email address wasn t behaving. If you are considering responding, directing an email to
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 4, 2008
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      I have received an email from someone who has said my university
      email address wasn't behaving. If you are considering responding,
      directing an email to dysert_a at yahoo.ca would be just fine as well.

      Thank you again! apologies for the off-topic
    • Thorsten Renk
      In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles: Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems _-nwa, sinwa,
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 11, 2008
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        In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles:

        "Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems
        _-nwa, sinwa, sîna_ 'known, certain, ascertained'. After intransitives
        often = active participle, _va_nwa_. This has a past form _kárienwa_
        (rare)."

        As it is printed, 'this' seems to refer to the previously mentioned active
        participle. However, given the style of Tolkien's notes, this may be an
        accident and 'this' may in fact refer back to 'simple past participle
        passive' at the beginning of the sentence. I wonder of anyone with access
        to a copy of the original note could clarify if the text arrangement on
        the original document can provide any clue as to what is meant here?

        Thanks,

        * Thorsten
      • cgilson75
        I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the arrangement of the text does suggest that the This in the third sentence of the passage
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 12, 2008
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          I took another look at the photocopy of the manuscript, and the
          arrangement of the text does suggest that the "This" in the third
          sentence of the passage Thorsten quoted refers back to the first
          sentence. Of course these are somewhat rough phrases and not entirely
          grammatical as sentences, but I think the meaning of the third one is
          that _kárienwa_ is a rare past passive participle.

          The facet of the arrangement that suggests this is that the second
          sentence, "After intransitives often = participle active, _va-nwa_," is
          substantially indented from the rest of the text, as if Tolkien may
          have meant it as a sort of parenthetical note, with the beginning of
          the third sentence lined up horizontally with the first sentence, as
          though continuing the interrupted thought. But this is only a
          suggestion, since the alignment of the texts on the margin of the
          manuscript page is irregular. And it is clear that Tolkien composed
          these three sentences is in the order given, i.e. the second sentence
          is not a later insertion.

          Of the two possible interpretations of the ambiguous "This" in context,
          I think its reference to the passive rather than active examples
          preceding makes more logical sense as well; since the reason _va-nwa_
          can be understood in an active sense is because the verb is inherently
          intransitive. In other words the suffix _-nwa_ seems normally to add a
          passive sense, or "select" that sense from the two possibilities when
          the inherent meaning of the verb is transitive.

          I hope this is helpful.

          - Chris

          --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Thorsten Renk" <trenk@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In PE17:68 I find the description of the formation of participles:
          >
          > "Simple past participle passive _kari-nwa_, adj. _-ina_, after vowel stems
          > _-nwa, sinwa, s?na_ 'known, certain, ascertained'. After intransitives
          > often = active participle, _va-nwa_. This has a past form _kárienwa_
          > (rare)."
          >
          > As it is printed, 'this' seems to refer to the previously mentioned active
          > participle. However, given the style of Tolkien's notes, this may be an
          > accident and 'this' may in fact refer back to 'simple past participle
          > passive' at the beginning of the sentence. I wonder of anyone with access
          > to a copy of the original note could clarify if the text arrangement on
          > the original document can provide any clue as to what is meant here?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > * Thorsten
          >
        • Hans Georg Lundahl
          I have another kind of clue, Thorsten. Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 14, 2008
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            I have another kind of clue, Thorsten.

            Tolkien was a fan of Nordic languages, he may well have made a calque of the procedure where past participles like "g�ngen, kommen" are "active" = intransitive, because the verb is intransitive and as such cannot have a personal passive.

            But if anyone with access to the original note has more to say, so be it.

            --
            Hans
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