970Re: _Dagmor_ (Beren's sword) < *_dag-baur_ *'slay-need'?
- Nov 15, 2006--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote:
> [As I also wrote to Ryszard, my opinion is ultimatelyI have seen this analysis and I have found there as many as _six_
> that *'slay(ing)-need' is an exceedingly clunky construction,
> one that I think Tolkien would
> not have found pleasing or suitable at all
>(see Thorsten Renk's detailed
> analysis of all such Noldorin compounds in _Etym._:
compounds built like _Dagmor_ according to my theory (ie. _dag-_ verb
'slay' + _baur_ noun 'need' = compound: VERB-NOUN). Notice this
fragment of Thorsten's analysis:
"In some cases, verbs seem to be part of the compound. This is most
clearly evident from _megli_ < _mad-lî_ 'bear' (LR:369) which seems to
be nothing but the short description 'eats honey'. In other cases, a
translation would require a participle (although only the verb sten is
part of the compound), cf. _Glingol_ < _lingikâle_ '*hanging light'
(VT45:19,27). In all cases the verb stem is the first element.
However, since only roots are found and not inflected verbs, it would
be premature to use this to draw any conclusions on word order in
Noldorin. The (rather short) list is:
* _Drambor_, _Dramborleg_ '*beat-fist' (LR:354)
* _Glingol_ < _lingikâle_ '*hang-light' (VT45:19,27)
* _hadlath_, _haglath_ 'sling, *throw-string' (LR:363,368)
* _Maglor_ 'Gold-cleaver' (LR:371)
* _megli_ < _mad-lî_ 'bear, *eats honey' (LR:369)
* _Rhibdath_, _Rhimdath_ 'Rushdown' (LR:384)"
If my theory is right _Dagmor_ would be built like eg. _hadlath_
_hadlath_ < *_had-lath_ = *'throw-string' ie. *'string for throwing,
string which is used to throw [stones]'
_Dagmor_ < *_dag-baur_ = *'slay-need (n.)' ie. *'need of slaying, need
What about such an analysis?
[My own deep suspicion that Tolkien would never have thought this
construction suitable remains, since it arises not from any issue of
combining verbs and nouns, but rather from the unsuitability of this
_particular_ combination. As I said, the problem is that the proposed
meaning *'slay-need' is clunky and unappealing: it sounds to my ear
very much like something we would find in "Elvish As She Is Spoke",
not in Elvish as Tolkien conceived it. CFH]
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