Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

970Re: _Dagmor_ (Beren's sword) < *_dag-baur_ *'slay-need'?

Expand Messages
  • Richard Derdzinski
    Nov 15, 2006
      --- In lambengolmor@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" wrote:
      > [As I also wrote to Ryszard, my opinion is ultimately
      > that *'slay(ing)-need' is an exceedingly clunky construction,
      > one that I think Tolkien would
      > not have found pleasing or suitable at all
      > (...)
      >(see Thorsten Renk's detailed
      > analysis of all such Noldorin compounds in _Etym._:
      > <http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/noldorin/compounds.html>).

      I have seen this analysis and I have found there as many as _six_
      compounds built like _Dagmor_ according to my theory (ie. _dag-_ verb
      'slay' + _baur_ noun 'need' = compound: VERB-NOUN). Notice this
      fragment of Thorsten's analysis:

      "In some cases, verbs seem to be part of the compound. This is most
      clearly evident from _megli_ < _mad-lî_ 'bear' (LR:369) which seems to
      be nothing but the short description 'eats honey'. In other cases, a
      translation would require a participle (although only the verb sten is
      part of the compound), cf. _Glingol_ < _lingikâle_ '*hanging light'
      (VT45:19,27). In all cases the verb stem is the first element.
      However, since only roots are found and not inflected verbs, it would
      be premature to use this to draw any conclusions on word order in
      Noldorin. The (rather short) list is:

      * _Drambor_, _Dramborleg_ '*beat-fist' (LR:354)
      * _Glingol_ < _lingikâle_ '*hang-light' (VT45:19,27)
      * _hadlath_, _haglath_ 'sling, *throw-string' (LR:363,368)
      * _Maglor_ 'Gold-cleaver' (LR:371)
      * _megli_ < _mad-lî_ 'bear, *eats honey' (LR:369)
      * _Rhibdath_, _Rhimdath_ 'Rushdown' (LR:384)"

      [source: http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/noldorin/compounds.html%5d

      If my theory is right _Dagmor_ would be built like eg. _hadlath_
      (V:363, 368):

      _hadlath_ < *_had-lath_ = *'throw-string' ie. *'string for throwing,
      string which is used to throw [stones]'

      _Dagmor_ < *_dag-baur_ = *'slay-need (n.)' ie. *'need of slaying, need
      to slay'

      What about such an analysis?

      [My own deep suspicion that Tolkien would never have thought this
      construction suitable remains, since it arises not from any issue of
      combining verbs and nouns, but rather from the unsuitability of this
      _particular_ combination. As I said, the problem is that the proposed
      meaning *'slay-need' is clunky and unappealing: it sounds to my ear
      very much like something we would find in "Elvish As She Is Spoke",
      not in Elvish as Tolkien conceived it. CFH]

      --Richard Derdzinski
    • Show all 3 messages in this topic