653Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: porennin/suffixed _nin_
- Apr 5, 2004On 04.04.2004, at 18:07, Beregond. Anders Stenström wrote:
> David Kiltz skrev:No, I too think it is not 100% safe to take _nin_ here as an
>> Tolkien glosses "...tiro nin..."[loc. cit.] as '_tiro_ ==== 'look
>> towards (watch over), _nin_ ==== 'me'. It seems hard to drag over
>> the 'towards' to _nin_.
> While I agree with the last statement, I do not think it follows
> that _nin_ is accusative in _tiro nin_. Is there not a benefactive
> notion in 'watch over'?
accusative. However, given that we can identify _enni_ as dative and
_anim_ as 'for me' (benefactive), taking formally distinct _nin_ as
denoting something different, doesn't seem unnatural. Rather, it
looks like the most likely scenario.
As for the 'benefactive': I use the term in a more restricted,
syntactical way, not in its broadest semantical way. Naturally, such
things as 'I praise, support, guard him' do carry a 'beneficiary'
notion. That's not what I mean by it. 'Benefactive' means that in a
sentence, a 3rd or 4th 'object' is involved, which does not function as
direct of indirect object proper. In English, such objects are usually
marked by 'for': Peter (subject) gives Mary (indirect object) a book
(direct object) for John (beneficiary/indirect object). In classical
grammar it's called 'dativus commodi'.
So in a sentence like:
1) I wrote him a letter, I would speak of 'addressee' function, or
indirect object proper, whereas in a sentence
2) I killed him an animal (i.e. I killed an animal for him) I'd speak
of 'beneficiary' function.
> And could not, at least in some languages,Maybe. But compound verbs (preverb/preposition + primary verb) have
> a direction verb 'look towards' easily govern dative -- I think
> _entgegenblicken_ does?
always to be treated with caution when it comes to governing. It would
seem that S. _tir-_ means 'to guard, watch' [Etym sub TIR-] cf. also
_minas tirith_ 'tower of guard' [LR:passim]. An indirect object proper
would require a direct object, I think. But yes, it may stand for a
kind of 'prepositional' object in other languages but I cannot right
now think of an example. Considering what we have in other languages,
a direct object would seem more natural.
Also, at least in Quenya, _tir-_ governs the accusative, cf. _man
tiruva rákina kirya_ [MC:222].
Conversely (I know you're not saying that but) If indeed, _nin_ would
be a beneficiary in the phrase _a tiro nin Fanuilos_, I think an
obligatory direct object would be missing.
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