504Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Valarin: Blessed, Unblessed versus Unmarred, Marred.
- Oct 21, 2003I wrote :
> In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,To which Patrick H. Wynne responded:
> man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
> learned from Oromë".
> Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. TheTolkien's remark is quite relevant to my scheme.
> note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
> written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
> "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
> iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
> which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
It was written a few years after "Quendi and Eldar", that much is true,
but it does not contradict the Valarin language presented. And even
if Tolkien used to change his mind often, that does imply that he changed
his mind about the structure or meaning of the word _a-man_ in Valarin,
or that it did not exist or it existed with another meaning than 'blessed,
holy' when "Quendi and Eldar" was written.
And that meaning given to V._ a-man_ clearly supports my theory
(see below) that Q. _aman_ comes from the Valarin word 'a-man' and
not from an unknown Valarin word meaning at peace, in accord (with Eru),
which itself looks very close (in meaning) to a name such as _Mânawenûz_.
I also wrote:
> It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accordTo which PHW responded:
> (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
> that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
> literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.
> ... So I don't understand what your point ofYes, this is how I read it :
> disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
> the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
> derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
> in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
> does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
> means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" ...
_aman_ blessed, free from evil. Chiefly used as the name of the land
in which the Valar dwelt. V form not given; said to mean at peace, in
accord (with Eru). See Manwe.
"... Chiefly used as the name of the land in which the Valar dwelt. V form [of
the place-name of the land] not given..."
So, I wonder. Am I alone in reading the above : at peace, in accord (with Eru)
meaning the unknown form given the Land of the Valar in Valarin?
The V word 'in accord (with Eru)' appears inside the Valarin _Mânawenûz_,
said to mean One (closest) in accord with Eru, so it could hardly be said
as "not given".
Or does everybody agree with PHW, e.g. Q. _aman_ < from a Valarin word
not given by Pengolodh/Tolkien but meaning at peace, in accord (with Eru).
(I hope not. :-) )
[I had to edit out of this current post a fair amount of unnecessary
citation of Edouard's previous post and my comments added to same --
a gentle reminder to our contributors to please cite only the bare
minimum necessary, and feel free to paraphrase or summarize. Thanks!
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