Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

504Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Valarin: Blessed, Unblessed versus Unmarred, Marred.

Expand Messages
  • Edward J. Kloczko
    Oct 21, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      I wrote :

      > In XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
      > man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
      > learned from Oromë".

      To which Patrick H. Wynne responded:

      > Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
      > note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
      > written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
      > "Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
      > iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
      > which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
      > construct.

      Tolkien's remark is quite relevant to my scheme.
      It was written a few years after "Quendi and Eldar", that much is true,
      but it does not contradict the Valarin language presented. And even
      if Tolkien used to change his mind often, that does imply that he changed
      his mind about the structure or meaning of the word _a-man_ in Valarin,
      or that it did not exist or it existed with another meaning than 'blessed,
      holy' when "Quendi and Eldar" was written.

      And that meaning given to V._ a-man_ clearly supports my theory
      (see below) that Q. _aman_ comes from the Valarin word 'a-man' and
      not from an unknown Valarin word meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’,
      which itself looks very close (in meaning) to a name such as _Mânawenûz_.

      I also wrote:

      > It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
      > (with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
      > that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
      > literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.

      To which PHW responded:

      > ... So I don't understand what your point of
      > disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
      > the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
      > derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
      > in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
      > does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
      > means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" ...

      Yes, this is how I read it :

      _aman_ ‘blessed, free from evil’. Chiefly used as the name of the land
      in which the Valar dwelt. V form not given; said to mean ‘at peace, in
      accord (with Eru)’. See Manwe.

      as :

      "... Chiefly used as the name of the land in which the Valar dwelt. V form [of
      the place-name of the land] not given..."

      So, I wonder. Am I alone in reading the above : ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’
      meaning the unknown form given the Land of the Valar in Valarin?

      The V word 'in accord (with Eru)' appears inside the Valarin _Mânawenûz_,
      said to mean ‘One (closest) in accord with Eru’, so it could hardly be said
      as "not given".

      Or does everybody agree with PHW, e.g. Q. _aman_ < from a Valarin word
      not given by Pengolodh/Tolkien but meaning ‘at peace, in accord (with Eru)’.
      (I hope not. :-) )

      Edouard Kloczko

      [I had to edit out of this current post a fair amount of unnecessary
      citation of Edouard's previous post and my comments added to same --
      a gentle reminder to our contributors to please cite only the bare
      minimum necessary, and feel free to paraphrase or summarize. Thanks!
      -- PHW]
    • Show all 6 messages in this topic