503Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: Valarin: Blessed, Unblessed versus Unmarred, Marred.
- Oct 20, 2003Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
> This interpretation seems quite likely, although Didier hasIn XII:357 (n.18) Tolkien gives the meaning in Valarin of _aman,
> overlooked a piece of evidence which clarifies the probable
> meaning of the Valarin element *_aman-_ in these forms.
> In "Quendi and Eldar" (XI:399), Tolkien notes that Q. _aman_
> 'blessed, free from evil' was derived from Valarin, and though
> Pengolodh does not give the original Valarin form, it was
> said to mean 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.
man_ as :"The Valarin element _aman, man_ 'blessed, holy'
learned from Oromë".
[Interesting, but not germaine to the current discussion. The
note you cite is from "The Shibboleth of Feanor",which was
written c. 1968 or later, some eight or nine years _later_ than
"Quendi and Eldar", which dates to 1959-60. I have been lim-
iting the discussion to only those Valarin forms cited in Q&E,
which presumably form a relatively self-consistent linguistic
construct. -- PHW]
It is the Valarin name of Aman which means 'at peace, in accord
(with Eru)', not "Aman" as such in Quenya. It could be argued
that what the Elves translated as "blessed" in Quenya was
literally in Valarin 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'.
[This mostly repeats what I have already said in the passage
you cited above: that Q. _aman_ meant 'blessed, free from evil',
and that according to Pengolodh the "original Valarin form" from
which this Q. _aman_ was derived "was said to mean 'at peace,
in accord (with Eru)'". So I don't understand what your point of
disagreement is, unless you are assuming that Q&E says that
the Q. name _Aman_ applied to the land of the Valar was
derived from a Valarin name for their land meaning 'at peace,
in accord (with Eru)'. But this is certainly _not_ the case! Q&E
does _not_ say that it is "the Valarin name of Aman" which
means 'at peace, in accord (with Eru)'" -- Q&E states that the
Q. word _aman_ 'blessed, free from evil' was chiefly used
as the name of the land of the Valar, presumably _in Quenya_.
Note that Q. _aman_ is given uncapitalized and that Tolkien says
that it was "chiefly" used to refer to the land of the Valar, not
that it was _only_ so used; the clear implication is that Q. _aman_
was also used as a common adjective. And this Quenya adj. was
borrowed from a Valarin form (presumably also an adj.) meaning
'at peace' etc., -- but _nothing_ is said of the particular application
of this original Valarin form _in Valarin_. We do not know what
the Valar named their own country in their own language. -- PHW]
> So the literal meaning of _Aþâraphelûn Amanaisâl_ isThen Amanaisâl would be the same name as the place-name "Aman"
> probably *'Arda at Peace' or *'Arda in Accord (with Eru)',
> while _Aþâraphelûn Dusamanûðân_ means *'Arda not
> at Peace' or *'Arda not in Accord (with Eru)'.
in Valarin, which it isn't. The meaning was close for sure, but it is
probabaly not that of 'at Peace' or 'in Accord (with Eru)' then.
[No, because as shown above, Tolkien does NOT say in Q&E that the
Valarin element from which Q. _aman_ was derived was used by the
Valar themselves to form their own name in Valarin for the land in
which they dwelt. -- PHW]
> Another Valarin word that appears to have clear butI have in my dictionnary of Valarin, in "Dictionnaire des langues ds
> hitherto unnoted cognates in the languages of Middle-earth
> is _Phanaikelûth_, Valarin name for the Moon said to literally
> mean 'bright mirror' (XI:401).
Hobbits, etc". p. 27, pointed to the same direction, so to speak.
[Again, my lack of French defeats me! :-) -- PHW]
> This leaves *_kelûth_ to mean 'mirror', and this ValarinAt that goes here too, see my book on see p. 26. ;-)
> form closely resembles Khuzdul _kheled_ 'glass' in
> _Kheled-zâram_ 'Mirrormere', lit. 'glass-pool' (VI:466 n.39).
> Kh. _kheled_ was borrowed into Sindarin as _heleð_
> 'glass', which appears in the lake-name _Hele(ð)vorn_
> 'black glass' (ibid.)
Other cognates I have proposed in my book are:
- Kh. root *SH-TH-R (> _shathur_, 'cloud') and Val. _shebeth_ 'air' (XI:401).
- Val. *_ubôz_ '? lord', < _Ul(l)ubôz_, which could mean 'Lord of Waters' --
one of the titles of Ulmo in 'The Silmarillion' -- and Kh. root *Z-B-D seen in
- Val. _ul(l)u_ 'water' and Khuzdul _ûl_ 'rivers' (< ? 'weak' root *W-L), is
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