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408Re: ÓNI, ONYE

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  • David Kiltz
    Apr 15, 2003
      On Montag, April 14, 2003, at 04:00 Uhr, laurifindil wrote:

      > ÓNI, ONYE "you (both) with me" or simply "(you) with me".
      > Furthermore, the pronoun _-ni, -nye_ should be declined in the
      > accusative case (since they are not subject).

      Why do you think they are not subjects ? "You go swimming with me".
      While _me_ is in the oblique case here, its thematic role is certainly
      that of subject (agent) of the sentence. (I.e. == "you and I go
      swimming"). I don't see what sense a direct object would make here.

      [I don't think it is valid to restructure a sentence and then assume that
      it has any _necessary_ bearing on the grammatical relationships of the
      parts of the original sentence. Besides, how would you explain away the
      fact that in _I Heru aselye_ 'the Lord is with thee', the subject is _Heru_,
      leaving _-elye_ as the object? The fact that the object_-elye_ has the
      same _form_ as an object as it does as a subject does _not_ mean that
      it cannot fill two grammatical roles. Especially in a language that we
      know lost the formal distinction between nominative and accusative
      I also want to reiterate that there is absolutely no evidence to
      show that _óni_, _onye_ mean *'_you_ with me', sg. or pl. That is an
      assumption based on assumption (about the meaning of _ó-_). It is
      fine to specualte about such things, _so long as the fact that it is
      mere speculation is made explicit_. As, for example, by prefixing
      a hypothetical "*" to speculative translation. CFH]

      The dative in English is due to the particularity of Indo-European grammar.
      It would seem that the Quenya is more literally "together - I". Maybe
      an accusative would make sense when motion is involved, although I'm
      not sure whether that was one of its functions in Quenya.

      Note also that Sindarin _anim_ seems to exhibit the status rectus _im_
      (==subject case) as well.

      David Kiltz
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