362Re: Palatalization and Syllabification in Quenya
- Mar 16, 2003On Samstag, März 15, 2003, at 06:53 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:
> David Kiltz wrote:I will address this issue in a seperate post.
>> Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
>> that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.
> **I see. Why do you think so?
> **I was not talking about a palatalized _p_, because I do not thinkI understand now.
> the graphemic Cy combinations stand for palatalized sounds, but for
> -- why do you think they are palatalized?Again more on that seperately.
> Anyway, I am not against a palatalized _p_, but since I think initialYes, I don't see how a labial could be anything other than "palatalized".
> Cy combinations in PQ are monophonematic and palatals, a palatal _p_
> would be hard to imagine. It would be a parallel to a palatal _m_
> that I and Pavel talked about (namely we talked about _my_ in
>> **Ales gives the inventory of PQ, including:Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
>>> palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)
>> In my view there is no palato-dental series.
> **What do you think these combinations stand for?
where palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
place as e.g. English [sh and zh]). At any rate an inventory with regular
palatals + palato-dentals looks very dubious. Again, I think true dental
pronunciation only allows for palatalization.
> in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reducedYes, I agree. Just as _ry_ is.
> to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
> _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
> *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
> _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.
>> Also, inflected prepositions tend to be viewed as one word as theJust what I said. I noted that _ó_ is a preposition and that it is
>> developments of such inflections in e.g. Welsh and Irish show.
> **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
> a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
> reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
> in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
> was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
inflected. I am and was quite aware that _ohlon_ is not an inflected
preposition. My remarks were meant to contrast this, in my view perfectly
regular behaviour, with that of _máryat_. Interestingly, you're answering your
own question about _ny_. I think it stands for _n+y_, a cluster indeed.
>> Note that the _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combinedBut we see reduction almost everywhere else.
>> with a derivational element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.
> there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long
> vowels before a consonant cluster.
> **The reason of the exception may not be just in avoiding homophony.Agreed.
> As I said, keeping the relationship with _aire_ et al. could have played its role.
> **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from LatinThe word is of Greek origin. Why would it be taken from Latin where it
> 'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
> hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
is itself a loan? Also, in view of Christian-Latin texts and the development
of the word "Christus" in the Romanic languages (_cr-_) I think it was
pronounced [kr]. That makes a direct loan from Greek into Quenya even
more likely, I'd say.
> I found out that OE has _hr_, _hl_, _hy_ and1) They are biphonemic combinations as can be gleaned from their use in
> _hw_ occurring only word-initially (and in compounds). This is
> where Tolkien took the idea, I suppose. However, I have not been
> able to find out how these _hr, hl, hy, hw_ are treated
> phonologically: whether as a biphonemic combinations _h_ + sonant
> or monophonemic voiceless sonants.
alliterative verse. These _h_'s go back to pre-Germanic _k_.
2) I don't think this is where Tolkien got the inspiration. At least
not in the case of _hl_ and _hr_ which < *_sl_ and *_sr_. I'd warrant
the guess that the sounds (voiceless _l_ and _r_), were suggested to
him by Welsh.
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