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362Re: Palatalization and Syllabification in Quenya

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  • David Kiltz
    Mar 16, 2003
      On Samstag, März 15, 2003, at 06:53 Uhr, Ales Bican wrote:

      > David Kiltz wrote:
      >
      >> Seems you understood me right. There was no confusion. I simply think
      >> that _ty_, _hy_, _ny_, _ly_ are combinations of C+y.
      >
      > **I see. Why do you think so?

      I will address this issue in a seperate post.

      > **I was not talking about a palatalized _p_, because I do not think
      > the graphemic Cy combinations stand for palatalized sounds, but for
      > _palatals_.

      I understand now.

      > -- why do you think they are palatalized?

      Again more on that seperately.

      > Anyway, I am not against a palatalized _p_, but since I think initial
      > Cy combinations in PQ are monophonematic and palatals, a palatal _p_
      > would be hard to imagine. It would be a parallel to a palatal _m_
      > that I and Pavel talked about (namely we talked about _my_ in
      > _lamya_).

      Yes, I don't see how a labial could be anything other than "palatalized".

      >> **Ales gives the inventory of PQ, including:
      >>
      >>> palato-dentals: Ty, Dy, Ny (Thy not found)
      >>
      >> In my view there is no palato-dental series.
      >
      > **What do you think these combinations stand for?

      Well, a palato-dental, in my view, is a "palatalized" sound. Maybe they
      where palato-alveolars or lamino-palatals (i.e. articulated at the same
      place as e.g. English [sh and zh]). At any rate an inventory with regular
      palatals + palato-dentals looks very dubious. Again, I think true dental
      pronunciation only allows for palatalization.

      > in WJ:367 Tolkien said that _ó-_ is "usually reduced
      > to _o-_ when unstressed". He then gave these examples: _omentie_,
      > _ónoni_ "twins" and _onóna_ "twin-born". I would therefore expect
      > *_óhlon_, but since we do not see this form, I think it may suggest
      > _hl_ here functions as a consonant cluster.

      Yes, I agree. Just as _ry_ is.

      >> Also, inflected prepositions tend to be viewed as one word as the
      >> developments of such inflections in e.g. Welsh and Irish show.
      >
      > **Note that the _o-_ in _ohlon_ is not an inflected preposition but
      > a prefix. And as regards _onye_, it contrasts with _óni_ where no
      > reduction occurs because there is no consonant cluster while _ny_
      > in _onye_ is potentially a cluster because of the reduction. If _ny_
      > was a single phoneme (sound), there would be no reason for the
      > reduction.

      Just what I said. I noted that _ó_ is a preposition and that it is
      inflected. I am and was quite aware that _ohlon_ is not an inflected
      preposition. My remarks were meant to contrast this, in my view perfectly
      regular behaviour, with that of _máryat_. Interestingly, you're answering your
      own question about _ny_. I think it stands for _n+y_, a cluster indeed.

      >> Note that the _á_ of _máryat_ is indeed shortened when combined
      >> with a derivational element yielding a whole new word, cf: _-maite_.
      >
      > there seems not to be any statement of Tolkien's prohibiting long
      > vowels before a consonant cluster.

      But we see reduction almost everywhere else.

      > **The reason of the exception may not be just in avoiding homophony.
      > As I said, keeping the relationship with _aire_ et al. could have played its role.

      Agreed.

      > **Personally, I thought the name _Hristo_ was taken from Latin
      > 'Christus' where the 'ch' is pronounced as [x] (if I am not mistaken),
      > hence _xr-_ > _r-voiceless_, just as I suppose _sr-_ > _xr-_/_hr-_
      > _r-voiceless_.

      The word is of Greek origin. Why would it be taken from Latin where it
      is itself a loan? Also, in view of Christian-Latin texts and the development
      of the word "Christus" in the Romanic languages (_cr-_) I think it was
      pronounced [kr]. That makes a direct loan from Greek into Quenya even
      more likely, I'd say.

      > I found out that OE has _hr_, _hl_, _hy_ and
      > _hw_ occurring only word-initially (and in compounds). This is
      > where Tolkien took the idea, I suppose. However, I have not been
      > able to find out how these _hr, hl, hy, hw_ are treated
      > phonologically: whether as a biphonemic combinations _h_ + sonant
      > or monophonemic voiceless sonants.

      1) They are biphonemic combinations as can be gleaned from their use in
      alliterative verse. These _h_'s go back to pre-Germanic _k_.

      2) I don't think this is where Tolkien got the inspiration. At least
      not in the case of _hl_ and _hr_ which < *_sl_ and *_sr_. I'd warrant
      the guess that the sounds (voiceless _l_ and _r_), were suggested to
      him by Welsh.

      David Kiltz
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