202Re: i and y in Quenya: two phonemes or one?
- Aug 10, 2002--- In lambengolmor@y..., Ales Bican <ales.bican@s...> wrote:
>The _j_ is an easening sound here, it is sometimes not pronounced
> Petri Tikka wrote:
> > There is a situation that is very much like this in Finnish.
> > Let me phrase this similarly to your statements:
> > However, we have words like _paijata_ "stroke, pet" and _juoksi(j)a_
> > "runner". I am not convienced that this can be an evidence of _j_ and
> > _i_ occurring beside each other, as the _j_ between the vowels is only
> > an orthographic phenomenon, not observed in spoken speech. Furthermore,
> > some linguistics and common people would spell these sequences as
> > _paiata_ and _juoksia_.
> **So the _j_ is not pronounced there, right? Speaking of which, what
> is it like in Finnish? I do not know a lot about it. Does Finnish have
> j as a separate phoneme distict to /i/?
at all, but most often it is a gliding sound to help the transition to the
next vowel after an _i_. The gliding sound is not the same as the _j_
that is not next to an _i_. In Finnish, /j/ and /i/ are seperate phonemes,
eg. _paju_ "willow" is never pronounced with an _i_.
> > Hence I think the two sounds occurring in _Quendi_ and _Yavanna_Of course they are very similar. They probably never happen to
> > are not two variants of one invariant /i/ -- the vocalic [i] is an
> > independent phoneme from [y], just as [w] is independent from
> > [u], there being no correlation between them in "The Etymologies"
> > or elsewhere.
> **Well, is [w] really independent from [u]? Now that I think about
> it, is [w] not just a variant of [u]? These two sounds are very
> similar. As far as I am aware [w] occurs only before vowels and [u]
> only before consonants, and we never find combinations -uw- or
> -wu- in Quenya.
be beside each other because of euphony, just as [g] and [k]
are never met together: [g] can only occur with [ñ].
> > So, IM(quite)HO, the usage of _y_ in the orthography ofYes, that's what I meant.
> > Quenya can be outlined thus:
> > 1. In the beginning of a word, and between single consonants,
> > it stands for a vocalic consonant.
> **Do you mean "between single vowels" like in _yúyo_ "both"?
> > 2. After a consonant it palatalizes the preceeding cosonant.Of course they are digraphic, but I was talking about orthography.
> **Unless combinations like _ly_ are just digraphs, see my reply
> to Hans.
> > 3. After a diphthong it stands for a medial easing sound.[ha-ja] is not possible because it is written with an _i_. Tolkien
> **This is likely, yes. -- I must say that my statement that _i_ in
> _haia_ is a part of the diphthong may not be true. We know how Quenya
> words are transcribed in Latin letters and sometimes even in Tengwar,
> but we usually do not know how they are realized in speech.
> The word _haia_ may be pronounced as either [ha-ja], [hai-a] or
> [hai-ja]. In my opinion, the pronounciation [ha-ja] is possible,
> though I do not find it very likely.
never stated that he used _i_ as _j_ in Quenya.
> Now _sarniye_ would clearly be an istance of [i] and [j] standingThe most likeliest explanation is that _y_ is an easening sound here,
> beside one another. However, if it is possible to pronounce _sarnie_
> as [sar-ni-e] and _haia_ as [hai-a], the [j] would be, in my opinion,
> only to ease the pronounciation of hiatus.
not the same _y_ as in _Yavanna_. That would explain why it is
sometimes written, sometimes not. This situation would be exactly
as in Finnish.
> I tried to listen to Tolkien's reading of Namárie but my ears are notHe didn't say [j], but it wouldn't matter, for the medial easening
> trained enough, so I would like to hear opinions of others (I think he
> said [mor-ni-e] without [j].)
glide/sound is not [j].
Petri Tikka Helsinki, Finland
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