195Re: [Lambengolmor] Re: i and y in Quenya: two phonemes or one?
- Aug 8, 2002atarinke wrote:
> > I thought about it today: are sounds _i_ (as in _Quendi_) and _y_**Well, I have not either. My German is very poor and the book
> > (as in _Yavanna_) two phonemes or variants of one phoneme in
> > Quenya?
> Hrm... I don't quite like the idea of having a consonant and a vowel
> as one phoneme (but I haven't read Grundzüge, so what do I know ;).
was not translated to Czech. I do not know whether it was translated
to English (was it?). But many books reiterated Trubetzkoy's ideas,
so I know them.
> I guess it could be possible however and if one accepts such a view one**You are right. There might be a problem with [u] and [w]. I realize
> might also want to look at /w/ and /u/. I do however have a few
> objections to adopting it in this case.
the both _u_ and _w_ may occurs at the beginning of words before
vowels: _wilya_, _Uinen_, though in case of _u_, the _u_ is always
a part of the diphtong _ui_.
> Firstly, others (Hans and Petri I think) have already mentioned that**I have already mentioned palatal/palatalized consonants. As for
> you'd have to think of diphthongs and the palatalised consonants as
> separate phonemes in order for such a view to work.
diphthong, it is a difficult question whether they are monophonematic
or biphonematic. It is not certain even in living languages.
> Whether one**I am convinced that _heru_ plus a patronymic ending _-ion_
> prefers /Cy/ together with /i/ or /C/+/y/ with /i/ and /y/ seems like
> a matter of choice but a choice does seem necessary.
> Secondly, I think I might have found a (admittedly single) possible
> minimal pair distinguishing them, namely _heruion_ (IX, p291) meaning
> "of lords" and an unattested but probably possible word _heru-yon_,
> "lord-son". Now, _heru-yon_ is unattested and would in all
> probability be seen as quite archaic (yondo being the standard form)
> but I would still say it's a possible Quenya word.
would produce *_heruion_, because we have _Eruion_ "son of
god" (VT44:12). And whether we can have *_heruyon_, I am
not sure, I think such a form would become *_heruion_.
As for _heruion_ itself, it depends on how it was pronounced. The
morpheme boundary is evidently between _u_ and _i_, so it might
be pronounced as [he-ru-i-on]. If this was the case, the [i] may
then occur between vowels and be distinct to [y]. However, if it was,
and I believe it was, pronounced as [he-rui-on], then it is parallel
> I here think that**It would. -- I wonder whether the pair _heruion_ "of lords" /
> the /i/ in _heruion_ is syllabic while the /y/ in _heru-yon_ is not
> so the difference in meaning would come across.
*_heruion_ "son of lord" was distinguished in speech. I would say
no, though I cannot prove or disprove it.
> Now, this is not a good minimal pair, I know. In part because one of**I think so.
> its constituents is made up by me, in part because they differ in the
> position of the stress as well. But I do think _heru-yon_ is a
> possible Quenya word, even if _heru-yondo_ or _heruion_ (with the
> patronymic -ion suffix) would be more probable. And the difference in
> stress lacks importance in this case since stress in Quenya does not
> carry any information (is not phonemic), correct?
> On the other hand, I'm a physics undergrad, not a linguist, so all of**Not at all.
> the above might just be (and probably is) nonsense.
ps. It may be also convenient to remark that Tolkien adapted
Maria's name to Quenya as _María_ not *_Maria_, because I believe
this form would become *_Marya_.
Mi dissero che a quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
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