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167Re: [Lambengolmor] aorist stem (was _-Vndo)

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  • Ales Bican
    Jul 30, 2002
      David Kiltz wrote:

      > Patrick Wynne wrote [in mess.157]:
      >
      > > So David's statement that "the aorist can, after all, be used as a
      > > past tense" is to my knowledge untrue.
      >
      > Granted.
      >
      > However, I see no compelling reason for the assumption that _-Vnd_ is
      > derived from the aorist stem (indeed from any temporal stem). The _i_
      > doesn't have to have anything to do with the aorist. I still maintain
      > the opinion that the notion of "past" is contained in the _n_.
      > A form in _-Vndo_ doesn't show us whether the root syllable once was
      > long since with the stress is on the second syllable, in CVCV:ndo, the
      > first syllable can only, as far as I know, be short. So I see nothing that would
      > exclude the interpretation as a past participle active.
      > And even *if* the lengthening of the root vowel as seen in _rákina_ is
      > indicative of the past, so should the _n_ be which, after all, is a
      > prominent marker of the past (I don't think I've got to give examples
      > for that).

      **I do not think the occurence of _n_ in a word has to imply that it
      is a marker of the past. Strong pasts of the _láve_ type do not have
      this component. And as for the strong pasts of the _quente_ type, the
      _n_ there may be explained as a nasal infixion, I think.

      > So whatever the _i_ between the root and the ending, it
      > apparently doesn't contradict a "past" interpretation.

      **I think the _i_ is a part of the _ina_ suffix. Cf. _hastaina_
      "marred" (MR:254). And I think this suffix is adjectival in origin,
      because we have many adjectives ending in _-ina_ (or _-in_);
      the _-na_ suffix would an allomorph of this.

      Patrick Wynne commented:

      > [I wasn't denying a "past" interpretation of _rákina_! My whole
      > point in noting that the long vowel in passive past participles
      > such as _rákina_, _rúkina_ was also indicative of the Q. pa.t.
      > was to refute your assertion that the stem in these forms
      > could be aorist.

      **Note that the lengthening of the stem-vowel is not exclusively
      a marker of pasts, it is also a marker of continuative stems.

      *****

      Patrick also wrote:

      > So David's statement that "the aorist can, after all, be used as a
      > past tense" is to my knowledge untrue. I'm not aware of any instances
      > of Tolkien translating a Q. aorist as a pa.t.; if David knows of any,
      > I'd be interested to have them pointed out. But even if a few such
      > examples exist, the _majority_ of the evidence points to the Q. aorist
      > being analogous to the Eng. gnomic present.

      **Well, I am neither a David nor the David *smile*, but what about
      these instances: _antaróta_ "he gave it" and _antalto_ "they gave"
      in Fíriel's Song? Perhaps even _kaire [...] kirya_ "ship lay" (OM1)
      if _-re_ is (as I believe it is) a feminine pronominal ending
      (cf. _kirya kalliére_ "ship shone" (ibid.)).


      Ales Bican

      --
      Mi dissero che e quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
      i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
      e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)

      [As for David's statement that "A form in _-Vndo_ doesn't show us
      whether the root syllable once was long since with the stress is on
      the second syllable, in CVCV:ndo, the first syllable can only, as
      far as I know, be short" -- this is not true. Cf. _ómaryo_ and
      _Rómello_ in Galadriel's Lament, in which the stress falls on
      the penult with retention of the long vowel in the initial syllable.
      The forms _antaróta_ 'he gave it' and _antalto_ 'they gave'
      from Fíriel's song might be present-tense forms, analogous
      to the "historical present" of Latin. -- Patrick Wynne]
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