167Re: [Lambengolmor] aorist stem (was _-Vndo)
- Jul 30, 2002David Kiltz wrote:
> Patrick Wynne wrote [in mess.157]:**I do not think the occurence of _n_ in a word has to imply that it
> > So David's statement that "the aorist can, after all, be used as a
> > past tense" is to my knowledge untrue.
> However, I see no compelling reason for the assumption that _-Vnd_ is
> derived from the aorist stem (indeed from any temporal stem). The _i_
> doesn't have to have anything to do with the aorist. I still maintain
> the opinion that the notion of "past" is contained in the _n_.
> A form in _-Vndo_ doesn't show us whether the root syllable once was
> long since with the stress is on the second syllable, in CVCV:ndo, the
> first syllable can only, as far as I know, be short. So I see nothing that would
> exclude the interpretation as a past participle active.
> And even *if* the lengthening of the root vowel as seen in _rákina_ is
> indicative of the past, so should the _n_ be which, after all, is a
> prominent marker of the past (I don't think I've got to give examples
> for that).
is a marker of the past. Strong pasts of the _láve_ type do not have
this component. And as for the strong pasts of the _quente_ type, the
_n_ there may be explained as a nasal infixion, I think.
> So whatever the _i_ between the root and the ending, it**I think the _i_ is a part of the _ina_ suffix. Cf. _hastaina_
> apparently doesn't contradict a "past" interpretation.
"marred" (MR:254). And I think this suffix is adjectival in origin,
because we have many adjectives ending in _-ina_ (or _-in_);
the _-na_ suffix would an allomorph of this.
Patrick Wynne commented:
> [I wasn't denying a "past" interpretation of _rákina_! My whole**Note that the lengthening of the stem-vowel is not exclusively
> point in noting that the long vowel in passive past participles
> such as _rákina_, _rúkina_ was also indicative of the Q. pa.t.
> was to refute your assertion that the stem in these forms
> could be aorist.
a marker of pasts, it is also a marker of continuative stems.
Patrick also wrote:
> So David's statement that "the aorist can, after all, be used as a**Well, I am neither a David nor the David *smile*, but what about
> past tense" is to my knowledge untrue. I'm not aware of any instances
> of Tolkien translating a Q. aorist as a pa.t.; if David knows of any,
> I'd be interested to have them pointed out. But even if a few such
> examples exist, the _majority_ of the evidence points to the Q. aorist
> being analogous to the Eng. gnomic present.
these instances: _antaróta_ "he gave it" and _antalto_ "they gave"
in Fíriel's Song? Perhaps even _kaire [...] kirya_ "ship lay" (OM1)
if _-re_ is (as I believe it is) a feminine pronominal ending
(cf. _kirya kalliére_ "ship shone" (ibid.)).
Mi dissero che e quell'epoca per quindici giorni e quindici notti
i retori Gabundus e Terentius discussero sul vocativo di _ego_,
e infine vennero alle armi. (Umberto Eco, _Il nome della rosa_)
[As for David's statement that "A form in _-Vndo_ doesn't show us
whether the root syllable once was long since with the stress is on
the second syllable, in CVCV:ndo, the first syllable can only, as
far as I know, be short" -- this is not true. Cf. _ómaryo_ and
_Rómello_ in Galadriel's Lament, in which the stress falls on
the penult with retention of the long vowel in the initial syllable.
The forms _antaróta_ 'he gave it' and _antalto_ 'they gave'
from Fíriel's song might be present-tense forms, analogous
to the "historical present" of Latin. -- Patrick Wynne]
- << Previous post in topic Next post in topic >>