- Jul 29 6:28 AMOn Freitag, Juli 26, 2002, at 11:06 Uhr, Ales Bican [in mess. 151]
>David Kiltz [in mess. 115] wrote:Strengthening is certainly a possibility. It still seems possible that
>[the beginning snipped]
>>In short, I would suggest that _Vndo_ is a
>>"personalized" form of a participle past active that should end in
>**Your interpretation is interesting. However, I always treated _ndo_
>like a strengtened form of _-no_ (e.g. in _tirno_ "watcher", TIR).
>This _-no_ seems to be related to _-on_ (from _-nd_, cf. _Sauron_ being
>from older _Thaurond-_, see Letter #297).
>A similar strengtening was already quoted by Fredrik: Tolkien wrote in
>WJ: "Other forms of this suffix [_-ro_] were _-rô_ added to stem, with
>or without _n_-infixion; and _-rdo_ > _rd_." (371). The suffix _rdo_
>would then be the strengtened form.
we have a connection with "past tense" though, I think. Maybe even in
_tirno_ (of that isn't, indeed, a typo for +_tirmo_).
>By the way, it is known that _-nde_ is a feminine counterpart of _-ndo_Yes, but we also have _melisse_ corresponding to _melindo_ [V:372, sub
>(see _Therinde_, PM:333).
> It is also known that there is _-re_ being aMaybe we have it in _(Tar) Elestirne_ "Lady of the Star-brow" [UT:184,
>counterpart of _-ro_. Furthermore, there is _-me_ being a counterpart
>of _-mo_, and _-e_ of _-o_. But what about _-ne_, which could be a
>counterpart of _-no_, does it exist? I am not aware of it;
205, 284] containing a root STIR-. Unfortunately, I'm not able to cite
where I found the root STIR- but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere.
Maybe someone can help me out ?
[I have checked my photocopies of the _Etymologies_, and the form is
without question _tirno_ in both its occurrences: Q. _halatir(no)_ '"fish-
watcher", kingfisher' (V:386 s.v. SKAL-(2) 'small fish') and PQ _khalatirno_
'fish-watcher' (with final vowel marked with both macron and breve) >
Q. _halatir_ (_-tirnen_) 'kingfisher' (V:394 s.v. TIR- 'watch, guard').
The best evidence against interpretation of agentive _-ndo_ as
"a 'personalized' form of a participle past active" is the fact that
agentives in _-ndo_ seem instead to be clearly formed from the
_aorist_ stem. Aorist stems in Quenya end in either short _-i_ (as
aorist pl. _kari-r_ in _i karir quettar ómainen_ 'those who form words
with voices' (XI:391), or in _-a_ as in Q. _ava-_ *'refuse, forbid',
< _*aba-_ (Tolkien says of the root *ABA: "As a verbal stem it
developed the form _*aba-_ (with connecting vowel _a_ in the
Thus _úcarindor_ 'sinners, evil-doers' in _Aia María_ III, IV (VT43:27-8)
can be seen to contain the same aorist stem _kari-_ 'make, do' seen
in _i karir quettar ómainen_ cited above; _úcarindor_ indicates people
who habitually sin, as a general fact without specific reference to
past or present. _runando_ 'redeemer' in the Litany of Loreto (VT44:12)
must be an example of an a-stem aorist. In some instances Tolkien
hesitated between giving a verb an i-stem aorist or an a-stem aorist;
hence we see both _lucindor_ and _lucandor_ 'those who trespass,
transgressors' in the earlier drafts of the Átaremma.
-- Patrick Wynne]
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