Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: lakhotiya wowaglaka wacin yelo

Expand Messages
  • Gerda
    Han Ewaktunje! Mish eya Lakotiyapi kin unspemic iciyin na wociglaka wacin. Makoce mitawa kin el H*e na Paha eya heca, na Wakpala na Ble kho, tuka mni tanka
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Han Ewaktunje!
      Mish'eya Lakotiyapi kin unspemic'iciyin na wociglaka wacin.
      Makoce mitawa kin el H*e na Paha eya heca, na Wakpala na Ble kho,
      tuka mni tanka leciya takuni heca shni. Tuktel makoce el wati he? He
      slolyaya he?
      Toksha ake, Gerda (mawinyan)
      P.S. "Profile" ekta nahanh'ci wanyanka shni ye! ;-)

      --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "ewaktunje" <y.bordarier@w...>
      wrote:
      > Hao tuweke eyash
      > Wamashicu yunkan lakhota woglakapi kin unspe iblutelo. Tuwa omakiye
      > cin hwo na mikici woglaka?
      > Lila pilamayaye na toksha ake.
      > Ewaktunje.
    • Gerda
      Hello Connie! Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-) This was a nice sentence! Thank you for your explanations of the two words wayaphikapi and unka yapi. Toksha,
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Connie!
        Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)
        This was a nice sentence! Thank you for your explanations of the two
        words wayaphikapi and unka'yapi.
        Toksha, Gerda

        --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Constantine & Kseniya"
        <wablenica@m...> wrote:
        > Hau Ewaktunje,
        >
        > --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "ewaktunje" <y.bordarier@w...>
        wrote:
        > > Hao tuweke eyash
        > > Wamashicu yunkan lakhota woglakapi kin unspe iblutelo.
        >
        > Mish eya wamashicun. Lila wiyushkinyan kichi wochiglakin ktelo!
        >
        > Tuwa omakiye
        > > cin hwo na mikici woglaka?
        >
        > Lila ochiciyin kte shni iblukcan k'eyash tohan Lakholiyap
        wounglakapi
        > channa kitanla isam waunyaphikapi unkayapi sece.
        >
        > [wayaphikA - wablaphikA - fluent speaker?]
        > [a'yA, ama'ye, unka'yapi - become, grow]
        >
        > Tohanl wayaphikapi kichi wounglakapi kin hehanl ounkiyapi hce.
        > > Lila pilamayaye na toksha ake.
        > Nish philamayayexce.
        >
        > Connie miyelo.
      • aolung
        Hau Gerda! Would you please point out to me the construction of _nitawalapika kin_ (nita + wayapikA)? It seems that you use it as a noun, here - then why
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Hau Gerda!

          Would you please point out to me the construction of _nitawalapika kin_
          (nita + wayapikA)? It seems that you use it as a noun, here - then why
          _walapika_?

          In your last post, you talk about "lakes also" (Guess, I first erroneously
          read it as "blue lakes" ;-) which might be true as well (to vs. ko).

          Toksa, Alfred miyelo

          --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Gerda" <gerda.brunner@f...> wrote:
          > Hello Connie!
          > Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)
          > This was a nice sentence! Thank you for your explanations of the two
          > words wayaphikapi and unka'yapi.
          > Toksha, Gerda
        • Gerda
          Hello Alfred! wayaphika = fluent speaker wablaphika (I) walaphika (you) nitha(wa) (your) nithawalaphika (your fluent speaking) Yes, I treated it as a noun.
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Alfred!

            wayaphika = fluent speaker
            wablaphika (I)
            walaphika (you)
            nitha(wa) (your)
            nithawalaphika (your fluent speaking)

            Yes, I treated it as a noun. Just my own guess! Perhaps it couldn't
            be said as a noun at all or something has to be added, perhaps
            something like owayaphikapi or so. But Connie himself added a
            question marks to the meaning of the word, maybe it is a very new
            one. I liked it, anyway! ;-)

            You understood well. I spoke about the mountains, the hills, the
            rivers and lakes in my country. Only there's no sea there. (O I see,
            there's an error, it seems. The right word for sea/ocean seems to
            be "mniwanca" not "mni tanka").

            Toksha,
            Gerda


            --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, aolung <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Hau Gerda!
            >
            > Would you please point out to me the construction of _nitawalapika
            kin_
            > (nita + wayapikA)? It seems that you use it as a noun, here - then
            why
            > _walapika_?
            >
            > In your last post, you talk about "lakes also" (Guess, I first
            erroneously
            > read it as "blue lakes" ;-) which might be true as well (to vs. ko).
            >
            > Toksa, Alfred miyelo
            >
            > --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, "Gerda" <gerda.brunner@f...>
            wrote:
            > > Hello Connie!
            > > Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)
            > > This was a nice sentence! Thank you for your explanations of the
            two
            > > words wayaphikapi and unka'yapi.
            > > Toksha, Gerda
          • Wablenica
            Hau mitakuyepi, I ll try to comment on the errors, thus we ll progress, I think. Of course, comments and correction of my comments are welcome :-). 1. mikici
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Hau mitakuyepi,

              I'll try to comment on the errors, thus we'll progress, I think.
              Of course, comments and correction of my comments are welcome :-).

              1. "mikici woglaka"
              kichi' is "conjugated" as mi'chi, ni'chi, uNki'chi, but use this
              cautiously: instead other means are often used: kichi' uN - to be with
              smb.; to have smb. as a spouse - kichi' niuN' - (s)he is with you,
              kichi' mauN' - with me, etc.

              However for "talk with smb." I saw k(i)chi wo'glakA (wo'-maglake,
              wo'-chiglake, etc.). Alternatively, we can say just wo'uNglake - I and
              you talked.

              So if these two templates are the only possible ones, we can say
              either
              kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN', or
              wo'uNglaka wachiN', but not
              wo'chiglaka wachiN'.

              2. "Makoce mitawa kin el H*e na Paha eya heca"
              he'cha is "to be a..; to be of some kind, to belong to (some) class of
              objects".
              I guess that here we should use the verbs of location (to be localized
              somewhere). This set is not easy to use, although many verbs have the
              same usage as in other languages.
              For inanimate objects, high objects "stand" (hAN/he), "cubic" objects
              "sit" (yaNkA'), and long / plain objects "lie" (yuNkA'). Besides,
              numerous scattered objects "are fallen" - xpa'yA.
              I cannot recall which verb should be used for mountains and hills -
              yaNke / yuNke or xpaye.

              3. "Tuktel makoce el wati he?"
              tuktel is "where", tukte is "which". I think that it should be "tukte
              makhoche el...".

              4. "Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)"
              Buechel has wayaphikA as a "fluent speakers", Jan also used it once.
              Compare "wayuphikA" (wabluphike), "an expert in..", also in compounds:
              lol'ix'aN waluphike - you cook very good (Verb waluphike - you are an
              expert in V-ing).

              To make a "noun" out of a verb you can simply put a "kiN" after a
              sentence: "wayaphike kiN", "your speaking fluently".
              How a noun derivative is formed from wayaphikA, I don't know, perhaps
              nohow. Buechel has "wo'wayuphike", adroitness, art, cleverness,
              perhaps there exists "wowayaphike" too.

              Note also that English verb "can" is translated in at least three ways according
              to what is meant:
              a) to know how to: Verb uN-ma-spe - I know how to V.
              b) to be (physically/mentally) able to: wa-V o-wa-kihi - I am able to
              V.
              c) to be allowed to: (wa-?)V iyowiN-ma-khiyapi - I am allowed to V.

              As you can see, a), b), and c) may occur in almost any combinations.

              Toksha akhe,
              Connie miyelo.
            • aolung
              Hi Gerda and Kostya, ... (K.) can you elaborate on this: what s wrong with the last sentence in comparison to the first one? (which, BTW, seems to be a bit
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Gerda and Kostya,

                --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:

                > So if these two templates are the only possible ones, we can say
                > either
                > kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN', or
                > wo'uNglaka wachiN', but not
                > wo'chiglaka wachiN'.

                (K.) can you elaborate on this: what's wrong with the last sentence
                in comparison to the first one? (which, BTW, seems to be a bit weird,
                as well!)
                I'd prefer _wounglaka wacin_ (I wish you and me to talk) or _nichi
                wowaglaka wacin_ (I wish that I talk with you). But this maybe isn't
                real Lakota. ;((


                > 2. "Makoce mitawa kin el H*e na Paha eya heca"
                > he'cha is "to be a..; to be of some kind, to belong to (some) class of
                > objects".

                I too, was stumbling over the _heca_ part: I understood that Gerda
                wanted to express "da hat's" (es gibt da - there are) ;-)

                If using L. verbs like pointed to below, _yanka_ would match the
                German and English idiomatic 'stehen'/'stand' for mountains etc.
                (still more than for wiglioinazin/gas station :-) But who knows?)

                Along the lines of Lojban, I'd rather expect smth like _hel he pi_
                - which is wishful thinking, I guess.


                > 4. "Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)"
                > Buechel has wayaphikA as a "fluent speakers", Jan also used it once.
                > Compare "wayuphikA" (wabluphike), "an expert in..", also in compounds:
                > lol'ix'aN waluphike - you cook very good (Verb waluphike - you are an
                > expert in V-ing).
                >
                > To make a "noun" out of a verb you can simply put a "kiN" after a
                > sentence: "wayaphike kiN", "your speaking fluently".
                > How a noun derivative is formed from wayaphikA, I don't know, perhaps
                > nohow. Buechel has "wo'wayuphike", adroitness, art, cleverness,
                > perhaps there exists "wowayaphike" too.

                My understanding of Gerda's sentence had been rather "I like your (word)
                'wayapika'" i.e. "the word 'wayapika' you brought up pleases me" (rather
                than the English idiomatic coining "your-being-a-fluent-speaker pleases
                me).

                Thanks for enlightening us.

                Toksa ake, Alfred le miye.
              • Wablenica
                Hello Aolung, Saturday, March 6, 2004, 10:01:47 PM, you wrote: a Hi Gerda and Kostya, ... a (K.) can you elaborate on this: what s wrong with the last
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Aolung,

                  Saturday, March 6, 2004, 10:01:47 PM, you wrote:

                  a> Hi Gerda and Kostya,

                  a> --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:

                  >> So if these two templates are the only possible ones, we can say
                  >> either
                  >> kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN', or
                  >> wo'uNglaka wachiN', but not
                  >> wo'chiglaka wachiN'.

                  a> (K.) can you elaborate on this: what's wrong with the last sentence
                  a> in comparison to the first one? (which, BTW, seems to be a bit weird,
                  a> as well!)

                  The first is "I talk with you, I want",
                  the second is "we talk, I want",
                  and the third is "I talk you, I want".
                  The third variant is ungrammatical in English (I talk you).
                  Violet NapshaWin and David Heh*aka Cik'ala consider first two variants
                  grammatical.

                  We should memorize how many arguments (valences) should have a verb,
                  and the number of them may differ in different languages.

                  a> I'd prefer _wounglaka wacin_ (I wish you and me to talk) or _nichi
                  a> wowaglaka wacin_ (I wish that I talk with you).

                  --There is a tendency at least for some postpositions to shift all the
                  pronouns to the verb:
                  el maya-hi - you came to me
                  ekta chi-i - I came to you.

                  For some postpositions and for some verbs different templates are
                  used, varying from community to community.
                  Regina Pustet has two articles on postpositions and compound verbs.



                  a> Along the lines of Lojban, I'd rather expect smth like _hel he pi_
                  a> - which is wishful thinking, I guess.

                  -- inanimate plural ektunje shni yo!
                  hel he.

                  Toksha.
                  He miye Connie.
                • aolung
                  Hello Kostya, ... Oh, thanks, that s interesting. So, the pronouns are altered, I see. ... Archived in SIOUAN? ... Of course, actually didn t think of this!
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Kostya,

                    --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:

                    > --There is a tendency at least for some postpositions to shift all the
                    > pronouns to the verb:
                    > el maya-hi - you came to me
                    > ekta chi-i - I came to you.

                    Oh, thanks, that's interesting. So, the pronouns are altered, I see.


                    > For some postpositions and for some verbs different templates are
                    > used, varying from community to community.
                    > Regina Pustet has two articles on postpositions and compound verbs.


                    Archived in SIOUAN?

                    > a> Along the lines of Lojban, I'd rather expect smth like _hel he pi_
                    > a> - which is wishful thinking, I guess.
                    >
                    > -- inanimate plural ektunje shni yo!
                    > hel he.

                    Of course, actually didn't think of this! But apart from the plural, it
                    should work?

                    BTW, remembering the old Kinderlied "Ein Mops kam in die Küche,
                    und stahl dem Koch ein Ei...", I'd like to know the order of topics
                    going with ditransitives like _makinun_ (pug, cook and egg - steal)


                    Toksa ake, Alfred miye.
                  • Wablenica
                    Hello Alfred, ... a Archived in SIOUAN? --No, but I have somewhere the articles scanned cha hena hiyuchichiya owakihi. ... a Of course, actually didn t think
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 6, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Alfred,

                      Sunday, March 7, 2004, 1:53:04 AM, you wrote:
                      >> For some postpositions and for some verbs different templates are
                      >> used, varying from community to community.
                      >> Regina Pustet has two articles on postpositions and compound verbs.
                      a> Archived in SIOUAN?

                      --No, but I have somewhere the articles scanned cha hena hiyuchichiya
                      owakihi.

                      >> -- inanimate plural ektunje shni yo!
                      >> hel he.

                      a> Of course, actually didn't think of this! But apart from the plural, it
                      a> should work?

                      --For inanimate things, yes. For animate and cars use najiN.

                      a> BTW, remembering the old Kinderlied "Ein Mops kam in die Küche,
                      a> und stahl dem Koch ein Ei...", I'd like to know the order of topics
                      a> going with ditransitives like _makinun_ (pug, cook and egg - steal)

                      --AFAIK, some speakers insist that the order is strict: John Mary
                      wowapi wan makinuN, some admit any order. Indeed, in most cases the
                      direct object is inanimate and indirect object - animate, so you can
                      guess what is what (cf. John stole Mary from a book :-)


                      --
                      Best regards,
                      Kostja mailto:wablenica@...
                    • Gerda
                      Hello Connie and Alfred! Connie wrote: I ll try to comment on the errors, thus we ll progress, I think. Yes, we ll progress!!! :-) It was so surprising! I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 7, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello Connie and Alfred!
                        Connie wrote: "I'll try to comment on the errors, thus we'll
                        progress, I think."

                        Yes, we'll progress!!! :-)
                        It was so surprising! I didn't expect to have such a big echo on my
                        few words. This was such a good teaching, Connie. Thank you so much!
                        And thanks to Alfred too, you gave the speed to make the "car"
                        running so fast. ;-)
                        I learned so much in such a short time.
                        ----------------------------------------------------
                        I didn't consider the word "kchi" needed for this sentence.
                        Connie, you proposed the two examples:
                        kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN'
                        wo'uNglaka wachiN'

                        I would have said the following:
                        Niye kchi woglaka wachiN'
                        Would this also be a correct sentence?
                        ----------------------------------------------------
                        Now the "hecha"
                        Seems I don't know well enough the real meaning of it. I meant
                        that "there are" some mountains and hills, some rivers and lakes.

                        I remember the "Bringer of the Mystery Dog" story. There I noticed
                        the word "hiye'ye".

                        Paha' ali'liya HIYE'YE ki~ na makxo'blaye phez*i' zizi' na g*i'
                        i'chicahi s'e YU~KE' ki~ iyo'pteya maxpi'yatxo zii'chicahiya he' ki~
                        iyo'kogna, kaa'glagla ta'ku wa~ ha'~skeya s*ogya' oi'yokpaza u~
                        ica'g*opi s7e HA'~-he.
                        (Over the rolling hills between a stretch of yellow-brown grassland
                        and yellow blue sky, a thick dark line edged along.)

                        So HIYE'YE, YU~KE' and HA'~ are used in this sentence here.
                        Something new I also learned today. In Buechel's dictionary I learned
                        about the above "HA'~-HE". When the word "HE" is added, that means,
                        the story tells from past time.

                        I would like to write my sentence here again, hoping they will be
                        written correct.
                        Makxoce mitxawa ki~ el h*e na paha eya ha~ na wakpala na ble kxo lel
                        yu~ke, tukxa mniwanca lechiya takuni yu~ke shni.
                        ----------------------------------------------------
                        I learned also about tukte (lila philamayaye, Connie!!!)
                        Tukte makxoce el wati he?
                        ----------------------------------------------------
                        And the last sentence: "Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi."
                        My intention was, to say: "Your 'fluently' speaking has pleased me."
                        Very interesting, your explanations, Connie.
                        The root seems to be "phica" to be able (to be the expert in this
                        case).

                        Perhaps this would have been another way to say it:
                        Oe'gle walaphika kin iyomakiphi.
                        ----------------------------------------------------

                        Akhe wou~spe walaphika u~k'upi ki~ he wophila txanka echiciye kshto.
                        (Imashtecehxce s*ni seche!!! -- and -- as you can see, although the
                        many mistakes I made, I'm courageous enough to try to make sentences
                        again and again) ;-)

                        Toksha, Gerda


                        --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:
                        > Hau mitakuyepi,
                        >
                        > I'll try to comment on the errors, thus we'll progress, I think.
                        > Of course, comments and correction of my comments are welcome :-).
                        >
                        > 1. "mikici woglaka"
                        > kichi' is "conjugated" as mi'chi, ni'chi, uNki'chi, but use this
                        > cautiously: instead other means are often used: kichi' uN - to be
                        with
                        > smb.; to have smb. as a spouse - kichi' niuN' - (s)he is with you,
                        > kichi' mauN' - with me, etc.
                        >
                        > However for "talk with smb." I saw k(i)chi wo'glakA (wo'-maglake,
                        > wo'-chiglake, etc.). Alternatively, we can say just wo'uNglake - I
                        and
                        > you talked.
                        >
                        > So if these two templates are the only possible ones, we can say
                        > either
                        > kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN', or
                        > wo'uNglaka wachiN', but not
                        > wo'chiglaka wachiN'.
                        >
                        > 2. "Makoce mitawa kin el H*e na Paha eya heca"
                        > he'cha is "to be a..; to be of some kind, to belong to (some) class
                        of
                        > objects".
                        > I guess that here we should use the verbs of location (to be
                        localized
                        > somewhere). This set is not easy to use, although many verbs have
                        the
                        > same usage as in other languages.
                        > For inanimate objects, high objects "stand" (hAN/he), "cubic"
                        objects
                        > "sit" (yaNkA'), and long / plain objects "lie" (yuNkA'). Besides,
                        > numerous scattered objects "are fallen" - xpa'yA.
                        > I cannot recall which verb should be used for mountains and hills -
                        > yaNke / yuNke or xpaye.
                        >
                        > 3. "Tuktel makoce el wati he?"
                        > tuktel is "where", tukte is "which". I think that it should
                        be "tukte
                        > makhoche el...".
                        >
                        > 4. "Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi. :-)"
                        > Buechel has wayaphikA as a "fluent speakers", Jan also used it once.
                        > Compare "wayuphikA" (wabluphike), "an expert in..", also in
                        compounds:
                        > lol'ix'aN waluphike - you cook very good (Verb waluphike - you are
                        an
                        > expert in V-ing).
                        >
                        > To make a "noun" out of a verb you can simply put a "kiN" after a
                        > sentence: "wayaphike kiN", "your speaking fluently".
                        > How a noun derivative is formed from wayaphikA, I don't know,
                        perhaps
                        > nohow. Buechel has "wo'wayuphike", adroitness, art, cleverness,
                        > perhaps there exists "wowayaphike" too.
                        >
                        > Note also that English verb "can" is translated in at least three
                        ways according
                        > to what is meant:
                        > a) to know how to: Verb uN-ma-spe - I know how to V.
                        > b) to be (physically/mentally) able to: wa-V o-wa-kihi - I am able
                        to
                        > V.
                        > c) to be allowed to: (wa-?)V iyowiN-ma-khiyapi - I am allowed to V.
                        >
                        > As you can see, a), b), and c) may occur in almost any combinations.
                        >
                        > Toksha akhe,
                        > Connie miyelo.
                      • Wablenica
                        Hello Gerda, First of all, thank you for your thanks :-), but their abundance make me embarrassed. I cannot speak Lakhota, so I m perhaps one step ahead of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 7, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Gerda,

                          First of all, thank you for your thanks :-), but their abundance make
                          me embarrassed. I cannot speak Lakhota, so I'm perhaps one step ahead
                          of you. The best "award" for me would be the friendly and intensive
                          communication in this group.

                          Sunday, March 7, 2004, 1:11:26 PM, you wrote:

                          G> ----------------------------------------------------
                          G> I didn't consider the word "kchi" needed for this sentence.

                          (Note that it is kichi', shortened in casual speech to kchi'. Likewise
                          many k(e)c, k(i)c, k(i)p, k(i)ph occurrences are shortened: thok(e)ca,
                          tokh(e)ca, iyok(i)phi, iyok(i)s*icA, khok(i)phA)

                          G>
                          G> Connie, you proposed the two examples:
                          G> kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN'
                          G> wo'uNglaka wachiN'

                          G> I would have said the following:
                          G> Niye kchi woglaka wachiN'
                          G> Would this also be a correct sentence?

                          In Regina Pustet article three different patterns for pronouns usage
                          are stated:
                          1. separate pronouns: niye uN - because of you (and other senses)
                          2. mi-, ni-, uNki-, wichi- prefixes (nithaNtaNhaN - for the sake of
                          you, wichisakhib - beside them)
                          3. stative pronouns on the verb: kichi ma-uN, kichi wo-chi-glake, el
                          mahi)

                          She has a list of ca. 50 postpositions with their usages, checked with
                          Rosebud and Pine Ridge speakers. I cannot recall all of them, but
                          typically a postposition may be used in one or two patterns.
                          I can't recall whether "niye kichi" is possible or not.
                          This usage also varies from speaker to speaker, for example, Violet
                          Catches (from Takini band of CRST) denied several variants that were
                          OK with PR /RB speakers.

                          G> ----------------------------------------------------
                          G> Now the "hecha"
                          G> Seems I don't know well enough the real meaning of it. I meant
                          G> that "there are" some mountains and hills, some rivers and lakes.

                          G> I remember the "Bringer of the Mystery Dog" story. There I noticed
                          G> the word "hiye'ye".

                          --Yes, this is what I meant when talking about "several objects lying
                          here and there", - it is hiyeyA, not xpayA.

                          G> Something new I also learned today. In Buechel's dictionary I learned
                          G> about the above "HA'~-HE". When the word "HE" is added, that means,
                          G> the story tells from past time.

                          --This is a very controversial point of Buechel. He put on
                          "indoeuropean linguistical glass" when learning Lakota. There are no
                          purely temporal particals in Lakota, especially for past time.

                          I learned about "hAN - he - hiN" as an "continuative / imperfect"
                          particle, moreover, s*kata-haNpi may mean both "they are playing" and
                          "they were playing", depending on context.

                          Note that this particle originates perhaps from the verb "for an
                          inanimat high object to stand", - haN. Both have changing aN (ablaut):
                          haN pi, he s*ni, hiN kta.

                          G> I would like to write my sentence here again, hoping they will be
                          G> written correct.
                          G> Makxoce mitxawa ki~ el h*e na paha eya ha~ na wakpala na ble kxo lel
                          G> yu~ke, tukxa mniwanca lechiya takuni yu~ke shni.

                          --mind about ablaut: haN na = hiN na. (-A/-AN changes to -iN before
                          ktA, na, nahaN, naiNs*, polite/imploring ye)
                          tukha is a Dakota pronunciation, Lakota has tkha (or more often
                          (k?)eyash, with some possible shades of meaning )

                          Also, negative "there is" is often expressed differently in Lakota
                          (and in English/Deutsch/Russian too). E.g. to lack, zu fehlen?.
                          There are several "there isn't" verbs in Lakota, but I'm not at home
                          with them:
                          chola
                          nicA
                          wanicA
                          So perhaps instead of "yunke shni" we should use something different.
                          G> ----------------------------------------------------
                          G> And the last sentence: "Nithawalaphika kin iyomakiphi."
                          G> My intention was, to say: "Your 'fluently' speaking has pleased me."
                          G> Very interesting, your explanations, Connie.
                          G> The root seems to be "phica" to be able (to be the expert in this
                          G> case).

                          --yes, but more accurately, -phi-, an ancient root meaning "good", not
                          used alone but in derivatives (philayA, phica, iyokiphi, etc.)
                          wayaphikA has also ya- "by speech/mouth" instrumental prefix.
                          G> Perhaps this would have been another way to say it:
                          G> Oe'gle walaphika kin iyomakiphi.

                          --Perhaps, although we could argue about is it "oegle" or "wichoie"
                          :-).
                          However it is a Y-verb, with base form "wayaphikA", like
                          "yawa/blawa/lawa"
                          G> ----------------------------------------------------

                          G> Akhe wou~spe walaphika u~k'upi ki~ he wophila txanka echiciye
                          G> kshto.
                          G> (Imashtecehxce s*ni seche!!! -- and -- as you can see, although the
                          G> many mistakes I made, I'm courageous enough to try to make sentences
                          G> again and again) ;-)

                          Lila winishtecin kte kinhan, tohanni walaphikin kte shni :-).

                          Toksha akhe,
                          Connie.
                        • aolung
                          Hau Gerd nahan Kostya! ... Just wishful thinking?? ;-) ... Hena hiyumayakiyin kte kinhan tohanni lila pilamayayelo! I d really appreciate that! ... CRST -
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 7, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hau Gerd nahan Kostya!

                            --- In lakhotaiyapi@yahoogroups.com, Wablenica <wablenica@m...> wrote:

                            > First of all, thank you for your thanks :-), but their abundance make
                            > me embarrassed. I cannot speak Lakhota, so I'm perhaps one step ahead
                            > of you. The best "award" for me would be the friendly and intensive
                            > communication in this group.

                            Just wishful thinking?? ;-)


                            > G> Connie, you proposed the two examples:
                            > G> kchi wo'chiglaka wachiN'
                            > G> wo'uNglaka wachiN'
                            >
                            > G> I would have said the following:
                            > G> Niye kchi woglaka wachiN'
                            > G> Would this also be a correct sentence?
                            >
                            > In Regina Pustet article [...] ...cha hena hiyuchichiya
                            > owakihi.

                            Hena hiyumayakiyin kte kinhan tohanni lila pilamayayelo!
                            I'd really appreciate that!


                            > This usage also varies from speaker to speaker, for example, Violet
                            > Catches (from Takini band of CRST) denied several variants that were
                            > OK with PR /RB speakers.


                            CRST - What's that acronym?


                            > G> I remember the "Bringer of the Mystery Dog" story. There I noticed
                            > G> the word "hiye'ye".

                            Gerda, this initial sentence of BoMD has been causing me problems
                            right from the start. Can you, Gerda, Kostya (or anybody else) break
                            the syntax down for me?? For me, this construction somewhat reminds
                            me of XIX-century European (Latin-influenced) long-winded sentences
                            (quite often starting epical narrations). Can't really think of straight-
                            forward Lakota expressing itself this way.


                            > --Yes, this is what I meant when talking about "several objects lying
                            > here and there", - it is hiyeyA, not xpayA.


                            I'm a bit puzzled, as B. seems to give _hiyeyA_ as "to become, to cause
                            to be" (which is not the sense mentioned by you)?

                            > G> Something new I also learned today. In Buechel's dictionary I learned
                            > G> about the above "HA'~-HE". When the word "HE" is added, that means,
                            > G> the story tells from past time.

                            Again, problems with the source quoted:

                            haN/he - they indicate the action is performed repeatedly or for a while
                            haN/hiN/he - same as s^khe: they say, it is reported

                            > --This is a very controversial point of Buechel. He put on
                            > "indoeuropean linguistical glass" when learning Lakota. There are no
                            > purely temporal particals in Lakota, especially for past time.

                            B. of course was educated in Latin, Greek (Hebrew): as I once expressed
                            in this place, his view of Lakota grammar might have been influenced
                            a bit by these great languages.

                            > I learned about "hAN - he - hiN" as an "continuative / imperfect"
                            > particle, moreover, s*kata-haNpi may mean both "they are playing" and
                            > "they were playing", depending on context.

                            I too :-)

                            > Note that this particle originates perhaps from the verb "for an
                            > inanimat high object to stand", - haN. Both have changing aN (ablaut):
                            > haN pi, he s*ni, hiN kta.

                            I'm still having D. Rood's dialogue in mind (that with the different _he_:

                            (About, if I remember it correctly):
                            He otunwahe kin el owote tipi wanzi HAN HE/hwo?
                            Ka wiglioinazin kin hel isakib wanzi HE.


                            > G> I would like to write my sentence here again, hoping they will be
                            > G> written correct.
                            > G> Makxoce mitxawa ki~ el h*e na paha eya ha~ na wakpala na ble kxo lel
                            > G> yu~ke, tukxa mniwanca lechiya takuni yu~ke shni.
                            >
                            > --mind about ablaut: haN na = hiN na. (-A/-AN changes to -iN before
                            > ktA, na, nahaN, naiNs*, polite/imploring ye)
                            > tukha is a Dakota pronunciation, Lakota has tkha (or more often
                            > (k?)eyash, with some possible shades of meaning )
                            >
                            > Also, negative "there is" is often expressed differently in Lakota
                            > (and in English/Deutsch/Russian too). E.g. to lack, zu fehlen?.
                            > There are several "there isn't" verbs in Lakota, but I'm not at home
                            > with them:
                            > chola
                            > nicA
                            > wanicA

                            #1 seems to be a postposition
                            #2 is a stative verb (e.g. manice - cf. Hebrew: eyn li vs. yesh li)
                            #3 might be a noun (smth lacking)


                            > --yes, but more accurately, -phi-, an ancient root meaning "good", not
                            > used alone but in derivatives (philayA, phica, iyokiphi, etc.)
                            > wayaphikA has also ya- "by speech/mouth" instrumental prefix.

                            What do you think is _wa-_? (generic object prefix? -> able to do anything
                            by mouth action, i.e. speak a language fluently?)

                            How would you translate: I'm pleased/impressed (etc.) by your (verb)
                            "wayapika". Don't think that a possessive _nita-_ would work here.

                            > --For inanimate things, yes. For animate and cars use najiN.

                            Shouldn't it be stressed _NAjin_ (oh yes, I see, your capital-key N was to
                            indicate nasalization!).
                            For cars also? Maybe as successors of (animate) _sunkawakan_ :-)
                            But, for cattle, also _han_ is used in some sense (B. of cattle etc that
                            remain or stay in a certain locality)

                            Pilamayayelo!

                            Toksa ake, Alfred miye.
                          • wexuye
                            Hau. Ewaktunje hehan miye, eyash letan Wexuye emaciyapi yelo. Amayalupte kin pilamayaye. Wounspe omnaye el ijehan owa owakihi shni eyash oko iyohila kici
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 15, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hau.
                              Ewaktunje hehan miye, eyash letan Wexuye emaciyapi yelo. Amayalupte
                              kin pilamayaye.
                              Wounspe omnaye el ijehan owa owakihi shni eyash oko iyohila kici
                              wociglake iblutin kte yelo.
                              Toksha.
                              Wexuye.
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.