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Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)

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  • adam
    Dust (water) devils, thermals, swirls, rollers, all make up the wind in our desert of Arizona and beyond. So many dynamics of convective winds to think
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 28, 2000
      Dust (water) devils, thermals, swirls, rollers, all make up the wind in our
      desert of Arizona and beyond. So many dynamics of "convective winds" to think
      about. I don't want to start another tangent here, I am truly enjoying this
      string and fully understand it even though I am not with one single second on
      kite yet. I am a beginner and this "hybrid" of a sport will attract all sorts
      of experienced enthusiasts from many other sports. This all pertains, even to
      us beginners. If it doesn't, then [delete.]

      I don't know your background, but I can tell you, knowing the southwest region
      of the US, if you have superadibiatic conditions, your luffing is to be
      expected. We also have these "radical" winds. I've seen a dust devil go
      across a lake sucking up water (misting system cooling? this should KILL the
      devil...) only to continue across the lake picking up dust again with a gap in
      the signature of said funnel.

      Perhaps this does not pertain to your discussion, but "making your kite more
      stable" in gusty conditions will only ad to it's complexity of operation. This
      is how the sport will advance with thinking such as yours. I would just ride
      earlier in the morning to reduce the "convective part" unless it is orographic
      in nature and this is another topic.

      You are going to get beat up in "puffy winds" and lengthen your arms. *grin*

      For now, I just want a kite/foil I can learn on in coastal wind (Mexico) Then
      I will take it home to the desert lakes. By this time, you guys will have the
      "gust control" werked out and I will see the fruits of your labor(s)...
      Unreal.

      I would love to see one day, somebody carving three sixtys in a thermal from a
      kite surf launch in a desert lake ascending... This "gust control" device(s)
      will be paramount. In hang gliding, I have climbed away from as low as 75' many
      times. This is with no water in site though....

      All this is a little "puffy thinking" if you know what I mean. This carving is
      all dreaming but this is how things get done!

      Another tangent...

      On loosing lift; I have climbed at 2,000' per minute to have my sail invert,
      pointing me straight at the ground diving at 2,000' fpm completely weightless
      and without the wing working (lost core), then regain control, pull back into
      the thermal only to climb again at 2,000' fpm up to the base of the cloud, then
      "ridge soar" using the "planted cloud" and the wind deflected up the side of
      said cloud, soaring up the side of it, to14,000' and beyond in a cross country
      flight. This is not a big deal to hang gliding, but we have bones and reflex
      in our sails.

      To "live" through gusts, are "bones of some sort" to be used? Cambered
      battens, a structure with reflex in the trailing edge? ala HG? or bridal tech
      as in PG? or both? Things that make you go hmmm.

      It takes vision, lessons learned from people such as you guys to advance the
      sport. PLEASE respect each others opinions and try not to make blanket
      statements that downplay others interests. At this point, if it is earnest, we
      all need each others input.

      Thank you all for the interesting comments, I enjoy the reading, albeit I still
      have to learn a simple waterstart!

      adam

      Photograph from B.Thompson

      Colin Gowland wrote:

      > > I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or tell me
      > > where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you operate
      > > the VAOAS during a big gust? Can you change the AoA immediately like you
      > > can with the trim loop on an AR5? I do not have any experience
      > paragliding.
      >
      > Basically during a big gust you let out the middle line which releases
      > pressures on the CD lines. It doesn't "spill" air like the AR5 does but it
      > does speed the kite up tremendously allowing a much easier push to the edge
      > of the window. You still have to physically edge the kite to the edge of the
      > window but it's easier with a smaller AOA. When using just the normal VSS
      > it's easy to notice the difference from the first knot to the third knot.
      > The kite is noticeably faster with less grunt. However there is an optimum
      > setting for every wind condition so the VAOAS let's you set that, on the
      > fly. If you want to sine the kite faster you just pull in the line. If you
      > want to make the kite more stable with more "truck-like" pull then just let
      > the line out. You can order the VAOAS from Ian Young in Australia for about
      > $60 AUD... it comes with color manual and some lines and pulleys and a
      > cleat. IanYoung@... I'd love to give you a full diagram but then
      > you'd just make one yourself :)
      >
      > I spoke to
      > > Michel at CA about the luffing problems that I experienced. He thought
      > that
      > > the VSS adjustment would handle the problem. I think that the volatile
      > > conditions play a big part in the luffing problem. I would like to try a
      > CA
      > > New Wave equipped with the VAOAS to see if that solves the luffing
      > problem.
      >
      > These are truly crazy conditions you speak of and realize that many inland
      > lakes are not the same. I suppose the VSS on it's most stable setting still
      > wasn't enough to prevent the kite from luffing. With the VAOAS the stable
      > end of the VSS is extended quite a bit... well you can actually extended it
      > to a point where the kite is falling backwards down into the window but you
      > wouldn't go that far... just a touch out from that point. I suppose if you
      > order the VAOAS, you could request some sort of guarantee that it would
      > solve your luffing problems. If enough people get the VAOAS in action and
      > working efficiently it will probably become standard on CA kites... make
      > that all foils.
      >
      > Colin
      >
    • Farnsworth, Kenny
      Adam, The gusty winds were hell when my foil was luffing. They are quite manageable on an AR5 and the setup is simple. I agree that better systems are in the
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 28, 2000
        Adam,

        The gusty winds were hell when my foil was luffing. They are quite
        manageable on an AR5 and the setup is simple. I agree that better systems
        are in the works and it will be fun to see what comes out. I have learned
        to avoid the really nasty stuff, but I still get gusty conditions in the
        morning when I fly on southern drainage winds and sometimes I am out on a
        lake in the afternoon in my boat and I can't stand the thought of packing up
        and going home. I am learning the techniques to handle the crazy stuff.
        The best winds we have in Utah are afternoon thermals off the Great Salt
        Lake. They are smooth as butter, but they primarily appear in the spring
        and fall. During the summer the southern winds are usually stronger.

        You are wise to learn on steady ocean wind. It makes learning far easier.
        I would have preferred to spend a couple weeks on the ocean, but my work
        schedule doesn't allow it.

        Kenny

        -----Original Message-----
        From: adam [mailto:adam@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:01 AM
        To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


        Dust (water) devils, thermals, swirls, rollers, all make up the wind in our
        desert of Arizona and beyond. So many dynamics of "convective winds" to
        think
        about. I don't want to start another tangent here, I am truly enjoying this
        string and fully understand it even though I am not with one single second
        on
        kite yet. I am a beginner and this "hybrid" of a sport will attract all
        sorts
        of experienced enthusiasts from many other sports. This all pertains, even
        to
        us beginners. If it doesn't, then [delete.]

        I don't know your background, but I can tell you, knowing the southwest
        region
        of the US, if you have superadibiatic conditions, your luffing is to be
        expected. We also have these "radical" winds. I've seen a dust devil go
        across a lake sucking up water (misting system cooling? this should KILL the
        devil...) only to continue across the lake picking up dust again with a gap
        in
        the signature of said funnel.

        Perhaps this does not pertain to your discussion, but "making your kite more
        stable" in gusty conditions will only ad to it's complexity of operation.
        This
        is how the sport will advance with thinking such as yours. I would just
        ride
        earlier in the morning to reduce the "convective part" unless it is
        orographic
        in nature and this is another topic.

        You are going to get beat up in "puffy winds" and lengthen your arms. *grin*

        For now, I just want a kite/foil I can learn on in coastal wind (Mexico)
        Then
        I will take it home to the desert lakes. By this time, you guys will have
        the
        "gust control" werked out and I will see the fruits of your labor(s)...
        Unreal.

        I would love to see one day, somebody carving three sixtys in a thermal from
        a
        kite surf launch in a desert lake ascending... This "gust control"
        device(s)
        will be paramount. In hang gliding, I have climbed away from as low as 75'
        many
        times. This is with no water in site though....

        All this is a little "puffy thinking" if you know what I mean. This carving
        is
        all dreaming but this is how things get done!

        Another tangent...

        On loosing lift; I have climbed at 2,000' per minute to have my sail invert,
        pointing me straight at the ground diving at 2,000' fpm completely
        weightless
        and without the wing working (lost core), then regain control, pull back
        into
        the thermal only to climb again at 2,000' fpm up to the base of the cloud,
        then
        "ridge soar" using the "planted cloud" and the wind deflected up the side of
        said cloud, soaring up the side of it, to14,000' and beyond in a cross
        country
        flight. This is not a big deal to hang gliding, but we have bones and
        reflex
        in our sails.

        To "live" through gusts, are "bones of some sort" to be used? Cambered
        battens, a structure with reflex in the trailing edge? ala HG? or bridal
        tech
        as in PG? or both? Things that make you go hmmm.

        It takes vision, lessons learned from people such as you guys to advance the
        sport. PLEASE respect each others opinions and try not to make blanket
        statements that downplay others interests. At this point, if it is earnest,
        we
        all need each others input.

        Thank you all for the interesting comments, I enjoy the reading, albeit I
        still
        have to learn a simple waterstart!

        adam

        Photograph from B.Thompson

        Colin Gowland wrote:

        > > I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or tell me
        > > where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you
        operate
        > > the VAOAS during a big gust? Can you change the AoA immediately like
        you
        > > can with the trim loop on an AR5? I do not have any experience
        > paragliding.
        >
        > Basically during a big gust you let out the middle line which releases
        > pressures on the CD lines. It doesn't "spill" air like the AR5 does but it
        > does speed the kite up tremendously allowing a much easier push to the
        edge
        > of the window. You still have to physically edge the kite to the edge of
        the
        > window but it's easier with a smaller AOA. When using just the normal VSS
        > it's easy to notice the difference from the first knot to the third knot.
        > The kite is noticeably faster with less grunt. However there is an optimum
        > setting for every wind condition so the VAOAS let's you set that, on the
        > fly. If you want to sine the kite faster you just pull in the line. If you
        > want to make the kite more stable with more "truck-like" pull then just
        let
        > the line out. You can order the VAOAS from Ian Young in Australia for
        about
        > $60 AUD... it comes with color manual and some lines and pulleys and a
        > cleat. IanYoung@... I'd love to give you a full diagram but
        then
        > you'd just make one yourself :)
        >
        > I spoke to
        > > Michel at CA about the luffing problems that I experienced. He thought
        > that
        > > the VSS adjustment would handle the problem. I think that the volatile
        > > conditions play a big part in the luffing problem. I would like to try
        a
        > CA
        > > New Wave equipped with the VAOAS to see if that solves the luffing
        > problem.
        >
        > These are truly crazy conditions you speak of and realize that many
        inland
        > lakes are not the same. I suppose the VSS on it's most stable setting
        still
        > wasn't enough to prevent the kite from luffing. With the VAOAS the stable
        > end of the VSS is extended quite a bit... well you can actually extended
        it
        > to a point where the kite is falling backwards down into the window but
        you
        > wouldn't go that far... just a touch out from that point. I suppose if you
        > order the VAOAS, you could request some sort of guarantee that it would
        > solve your luffing problems. If enough people get the VAOAS in action and
        > working efficiently it will probably become standard on CA kites... make
        > that all foils.
        >
        > Colin
        >
      • Dwight & Jacky
        Adam, Please don t send pictures to the group. It s not cool. We subscribe via e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on the
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 28, 2000
          Adam,

          Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe via
          e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on the
          egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".

          From the Fisher's Fort
          Kure Beach, NC
          Dwight & Jacky

          http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes kitesurfing)
        • Eric And Holly Cohn
          Ok, so the ABS is affected by the AOL but not the AOA. Of course if you are a member of AAA you need to factor that in PDQ. I hope this helps; otherwise it s
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 28, 2000
            Ok, so the ABS is affected by the AOL but not the AOA. Of course if you are
            a member of AAA you need to factor that in PDQ. I hope this helps;
            otherwise it's BFD.

            Eric
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Farnsworth, Kenny <kenny@...>
            To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:15 AM
            Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


            > Adam,
            >
            > The gusty winds were hell when my foil was luffing. They are quite
            > manageable on an AR5 and the setup is simple. I agree that better systems
            > are in the works and it will be fun to see what comes out. I have learned
            > to avoid the really nasty stuff, but I still get gusty conditions in the
            > morning when I fly on southern drainage winds and sometimes I am out on a
            > lake in the afternoon in my boat and I can't stand the thought of packing
            up
            > and going home. I am learning the techniques to handle the crazy stuff.
            > The best winds we have in Utah are afternoon thermals off the Great Salt
            > Lake. They are smooth as butter, but they primarily appear in the spring
            > and fall. During the summer the southern winds are usually stronger.
            >
            > You are wise to learn on steady ocean wind. It makes learning far easier.
            > I would have preferred to spend a couple weeks on the ocean, but my work
            > schedule doesn't allow it.
            >
            > Kenny
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: adam [mailto:adam@...]
            > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:01 AM
            > To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)
            >
            >
            > Dust (water) devils, thermals, swirls, rollers, all make up the wind in
            our
            > desert of Arizona and beyond. So many dynamics of "convective winds" to
            > think
            > about. I don't want to start another tangent here, I am truly enjoying
            this
            > string and fully understand it even though I am not with one single second
            > on
            > kite yet. I am a beginner and this "hybrid" of a sport will attract all
            > sorts
            > of experienced enthusiasts from many other sports. This all pertains,
            even
            > to
            > us beginners. If it doesn't, then [delete.]
            >
            > I don't know your background, but I can tell you, knowing the southwest
            > region
            > of the US, if you have superadibiatic conditions, your luffing is to be
            > expected. We also have these "radical" winds. I've seen a dust devil go
            > across a lake sucking up water (misting system cooling? this should KILL
            the
            > devil...) only to continue across the lake picking up dust again with a
            gap
            > in
            > the signature of said funnel.
            >
            > Perhaps this does not pertain to your discussion, but "making your kite
            more
            > stable" in gusty conditions will only ad to it's complexity of operation.
            > This
            > is how the sport will advance with thinking such as yours. I would just
            > ride
            > earlier in the morning to reduce the "convective part" unless it is
            > orographic
            > in nature and this is another topic.
            >
            > You are going to get beat up in "puffy winds" and lengthen your arms.
            *grin*
            >
            > For now, I just want a kite/foil I can learn on in coastal wind (Mexico)
            > Then
            > I will take it home to the desert lakes. By this time, you guys will have
            > the
            > "gust control" werked out and I will see the fruits of your labor(s)...
            > Unreal.
            >
            > I would love to see one day, somebody carving three sixtys in a thermal
            from
            > a
            > kite surf launch in a desert lake ascending... This "gust control"
            > device(s)
            > will be paramount. In hang gliding, I have climbed away from as low as 75'
            > many
            > times. This is with no water in site though....
            >
            > All this is a little "puffy thinking" if you know what I mean. This
            carving
            > is
            > all dreaming but this is how things get done!
            >
            > Another tangent...
            >
            > On loosing lift; I have climbed at 2,000' per minute to have my sail
            invert,
            > pointing me straight at the ground diving at 2,000' fpm completely
            > weightless
            > and without the wing working (lost core), then regain control, pull back
            > into
            > the thermal only to climb again at 2,000' fpm up to the base of the cloud,
            > then
            > "ridge soar" using the "planted cloud" and the wind deflected up the side
            of
            > said cloud, soaring up the side of it, to14,000' and beyond in a cross
            > country
            > flight. This is not a big deal to hang gliding, but we have bones and
            > reflex
            > in our sails.
            >
            > To "live" through gusts, are "bones of some sort" to be used? Cambered
            > battens, a structure with reflex in the trailing edge? ala HG? or bridal
            > tech
            > as in PG? or both? Things that make you go hmmm.
            >
            > It takes vision, lessons learned from people such as you guys to advance
            the
            > sport. PLEASE respect each others opinions and try not to make blanket
            > statements that downplay others interests. At this point, if it is
            earnest,
            > we
            > all need each others input.
            >
            > Thank you all for the interesting comments, I enjoy the reading, albeit I
            > still
            > have to learn a simple waterstart!
            >
            > adam
            >
            > Photograph from B.Thompson
            >
            > Colin Gowland wrote:
            >
            > > > I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or tell
            me
            > > > where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you
            > operate
            > > > the VAOAS during a big gust? Can you change the AoA immediately like
            > you
            > > > can with the trim loop on an AR5? I do not have any experience
            > > paragliding.
            > >
            > > Basically during a big gust you let out the middle line which releases
            > > pressures on the CD lines. It doesn't "spill" air like the AR5 does but
            it
            > > does speed the kite up tremendously allowing a much easier push to the
            > edge
            > > of the window. You still have to physically edge the kite to the edge of
            > the
            > > window but it's easier with a smaller AOA. When using just the normal
            VSS
            > > it's easy to notice the difference from the first knot to the third
            knot.
            > > The kite is noticeably faster with less grunt. However there is an
            optimum
            > > setting for every wind condition so the VAOAS let's you set that, on the
            > > fly. If you want to sine the kite faster you just pull in the line. If
            you
            > > want to make the kite more stable with more "truck-like" pull then just
            > let
            > > the line out. You can order the VAOAS from Ian Young in Australia for
            > about
            > > $60 AUD... it comes with color manual and some lines and pulleys and a
            > > cleat. IanYoung@... I'd love to give you a full diagram but
            > then
            > > you'd just make one yourself :)
            > >
            > > I spoke to
            > > > Michel at CA about the luffing problems that I experienced. He
            thought
            > > that
            > > > the VSS adjustment would handle the problem. I think that the
            volatile
            > > > conditions play a big part in the luffing problem. I would like to
            try
            > a
            > > CA
            > > > New Wave equipped with the VAOAS to see if that solves the luffing
            > > problem.
            > >
            > > These are truly crazy conditions you speak of and realize that many
            > inland
            > > lakes are not the same. I suppose the VSS on it's most stable setting
            > still
            > > wasn't enough to prevent the kite from luffing. With the VAOAS the
            stable
            > > end of the VSS is extended quite a bit... well you can actually extended
            > it
            > > to a point where the kite is falling backwards down into the window but
            > you
            > > wouldn't go that far... just a touch out from that point. I suppose if
            you
            > > order the VAOAS, you could request some sort of guarantee that it would
            > > solve your luffing problems. If enough people get the VAOAS in action
            and
            > > working efficiently it will probably become standard on CA kites... make
            > > that all foils.
            > >
            > > Colin
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • adam
            In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe. Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one better. Thanks all for the nice
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
              In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe.

              Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one
              better.

              Thanks all for the nice reading.

              adam

              Dwight & Jacky wrote:

              > Adam,
              >
              > Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe via
              > e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on the
              > egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".
              >
              > >From the Fisher's Fort
              > Kure Beach, NC
              > Dwight & Jacky
              >
              > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes kitesurfing)
              >
            • Steve Thorpe
              Adam, Why take offense at a simple request to not send pictures. Though it does not bother me ( I have a fast DLS connection ) Many people slog along on slow
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                Adam,

                Why take offense at a simple request to not send pictures.
                Though it does not bother me ( I have a fast DLS connection )
                Many people slog along on slow modems. Pictures can take up
                a lot of bandwidth on a slow modem, so it's not an unreasonable
                request.

                And I think you'll be cutting yourself off from a valuable source of
                information for beginner kitesurfers. ( Not to mention depriving
                us of your experiences as you learn )

                Stick around.

                Steve Thorpe


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: adam <adam@...>
                To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:51 AM
                Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                > In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe.
                >
                > Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one
                > better.
                >
                > Thanks all for the nice reading.
                >
                > adam
                >
                > Dwight & Jacky wrote:
                >
                > > Adam,
                > >
                > > Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe via
                > > e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on the
                > > egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".
                > >
                > > >From the Fisher's Fort
                > > Kure Beach, NC
                > > Dwight & Jacky
                > >
                > > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes kitesurfing)
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Farnsworth, Kenny
                Adam, Don t give up yet, you haven t started kite surfing yet. You will find this group a great reference when you have questions. Kenny ... From: adam
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                  Adam,

                  Don't give up yet, you haven't started kite surfing yet. You will find this
                  group a great reference when you have questions.

                  Kenny

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: adam [mailto:adam@...]
                  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:51 AM
                  To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                  In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe.

                  Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one
                  better.

                  Thanks all for the nice reading.

                  adam

                  Dwight & Jacky wrote:

                  > Adam,
                  >
                  > Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe via
                  > e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on the
                  > egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".
                  >
                  > >From the Fisher's Fort
                  > Kure Beach, NC
                  > Dwight & Jacky
                  >
                  > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes kitesurfing)
                  >
                • David Stanek
                  Good point Steve, And we should also consider that not every net user have free local calls. I know that in some European countries you pay for your use of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                    Good point Steve,
                    And we should also consider that not every net user have free local calls. I
                    know that in some European countries you pay for your use of internet
                    provider as well as for local phone calls( to stay connected)per each minute
                    !! Lots of people simply don't have luxury of free local calls. I have
                    permanent and super fast connection with Rogers cable, for lots of people
                    downloading pictures or other big files can be not only a bit of pain but
                    also extra cost.

                    David




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From:
                    sentto-1363319-456-970250509-staff=skylinewings.com@...
                    [mailto:sentto-1363319-456-970250509-staff=skylinewings.com@...
                    ist.com]On Behalf Of Steve Thorpe
                    Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:01 AM
                    To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                    Adam,

                    Why take offense at a simple request to not send pictures.
                    Though it does not bother me ( I have a fast DLS connection )
                    Many people slog along on slow modems. Pictures can take up
                    a lot of bandwidth on a slow modem, so it's not an unreasonable
                    request.

                    And I think you'll be cutting yourself off from a valuable source of
                    information for beginner kitesurfers. ( Not to mention depriving
                    us of your experiences as you learn )

                    Stick around.

                    Steve Thorpe


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: adam <adam@...>
                    To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:51 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                    > In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe.
                    >
                    > Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one
                    > better.
                    >
                    > Thanks all for the nice reading.
                    >
                    > adam
                    >
                    > Dwight & Jacky wrote:
                    >
                    > > Adam,
                    > >
                    > > Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe via
                    > > e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on
                    the
                    > > egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".
                    > >
                    > > >From the Fisher's Fort
                    > > Kure Beach, NC
                    > > Dwight & Jacky
                    > >
                    > > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes kitesurfing)
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Eric And Holly Cohn
                    Oh boy, we have now gone from indecipherable teckno babble to on-line counseling! Cool! When do we get to compare our stock portfolios, pet care products,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                      Oh boy, we have now gone from indecipherable teckno babble to on-line
                      counseling! Cool! When do we get to compare our stock portfolios, pet care
                      products, and home improvement tips?

                      Eric
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Steve Thorpe <thorpes@...>
                      To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:00 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                      > Adam,
                      >
                      > Why take offense at a simple request to not send pictures.
                      > Though it does not bother me ( I have a fast DLS connection )
                      > Many people slog along on slow modems. Pictures can take up
                      > a lot of bandwidth on a slow modem, so it's not an unreasonable
                      > request.
                      >
                      > And I think you'll be cutting yourself off from a valuable source of
                      > information for beginner kitesurfers. ( Not to mention depriving
                      > us of your experiences as you learn )
                      >
                      > Stick around.
                      >
                      > Steve Thorpe
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: adam <adam@...>
                      > To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                      > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:51 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)
                      >
                      >
                      > > In review, I think it is best that I un-subscribe.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps in the future, a private message on what is cool would serve one
                      > > better.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks all for the nice reading.
                      > >
                      > > adam
                      > >
                      > > Dwight & Jacky wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Adam,
                      > > >
                      > > > Please don't send pictures to the group. It's not cool. We subscribe
                      via
                      > > > e-mail, so your pictures go to hundreds of people. There is a place on
                      the
                      > > > egroup web site for pictures. Look under "files".
                      > > >
                      > > > >From the Fisher's Fort
                      > > > Kure Beach, NC
                      > > > Dwight & Jacky
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.angelfire.com/nc/capefearwindsurfing/ (includes
                      kitesurfing)
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • rmlsd@aol.com
                      unsubscribe
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                        unsubscribe
                      • Colin Gowland
                        Eric you finally understand!! Congrats and welcome to geekville. L8R, Colin ... From: Eric And Holly Cohn To:
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 29, 2000
                          Eric you finally understand!! Congrats and welcome to geekville.

                          L8R,
                          Colin


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Eric And Holly Cohn <ericandholly@...>
                          To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 9:16 PM
                          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)


                          > Ok, so the ABS is affected by the AOL but not the AOA. Of course if you
                          are
                          > a member of AAA you need to factor that in PDQ. I hope this helps;
                          > otherwise it's BFD.
                          >
                          > Eric
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Farnsworth, Kenny <kenny@...>
                          > To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:15 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)
                          >
                          >
                          > > Adam,
                          > >
                          > > The gusty winds were hell when my foil was luffing. They are quite
                          > > manageable on an AR5 and the setup is simple. I agree that better
                          systems
                          > > are in the works and it will be fun to see what comes out. I have
                          learned
                          > > to avoid the really nasty stuff, but I still get gusty conditions in the
                          > > morning when I fly on southern drainage winds and sometimes I am out on
                          a
                          > > lake in the afternoon in my boat and I can't stand the thought of
                          packing
                          > up
                          > > and going home. I am learning the techniques to handle the crazy stuff.
                          > > The best winds we have in Utah are afternoon thermals off the Great Salt
                          > > Lake. They are smooth as butter, but they primarily appear in the
                          spring
                          > > and fall. During the summer the southern winds are usually stronger.
                          > >
                          > > You are wise to learn on steady ocean wind. It makes learning far
                          easier.
                          > > I would have preferred to spend a couple weeks on the ocean, but my work
                          > > schedule doesn't allow it.
                          > >
                          > > Kenny
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: adam [mailto:adam@...]
                          > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:01 AM
                          > > To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foil AOA comish (a begginer writes)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dust (water) devils, thermals, swirls, rollers, all make up the wind in
                          > our
                          > > desert of Arizona and beyond. So many dynamics of "convective winds" to
                          > > think
                          > > about. I don't want to start another tangent here, I am truly enjoying
                          > this
                          > > string and fully understand it even though I am not with one single
                          second
                          > > on
                          > > kite yet. I am a beginner and this "hybrid" of a sport will attract all
                          > > sorts
                          > > of experienced enthusiasts from many other sports. This all pertains,
                          > even
                          > > to
                          > > us beginners. If it doesn't, then [delete.]
                          > >
                          > > I don't know your background, but I can tell you, knowing the southwest
                          > > region
                          > > of the US, if you have superadibiatic conditions, your luffing is to be
                          > > expected. We also have these "radical" winds. I've seen a dust devil
                          go
                          > > across a lake sucking up water (misting system cooling? this should KILL
                          > the
                          > > devil...) only to continue across the lake picking up dust again with a
                          > gap
                          > > in
                          > > the signature of said funnel.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps this does not pertain to your discussion, but "making your kite
                          > more
                          > > stable" in gusty conditions will only ad to it's complexity of
                          operation.
                          > > This
                          > > is how the sport will advance with thinking such as yours. I would just
                          > > ride
                          > > earlier in the morning to reduce the "convective part" unless it is
                          > > orographic
                          > > in nature and this is another topic.
                          > >
                          > > You are going to get beat up in "puffy winds" and lengthen your arms.
                          > *grin*
                          > >
                          > > For now, I just want a kite/foil I can learn on in coastal wind (Mexico)
                          > > Then
                          > > I will take it home to the desert lakes. By this time, you guys will
                          have
                          > > the
                          > > "gust control" werked out and I will see the fruits of your labor(s)...
                          > > Unreal.
                          > >
                          > > I would love to see one day, somebody carving three sixtys in a thermal
                          > from
                          > > a
                          > > kite surf launch in a desert lake ascending... This "gust control"
                          > > device(s)
                          > > will be paramount. In hang gliding, I have climbed away from as low as
                          75'
                          > > many
                          > > times. This is with no water in site though....
                          > >
                          > > All this is a little "puffy thinking" if you know what I mean. This
                          > carving
                          > > is
                          > > all dreaming but this is how things get done!
                          > >
                          > > Another tangent...
                          > >
                          > > On loosing lift; I have climbed at 2,000' per minute to have my sail
                          > invert,
                          > > pointing me straight at the ground diving at 2,000' fpm completely
                          > > weightless
                          > > and without the wing working (lost core), then regain control, pull back
                          > > into
                          > > the thermal only to climb again at 2,000' fpm up to the base of the
                          cloud,
                          > > then
                          > > "ridge soar" using the "planted cloud" and the wind deflected up the
                          side
                          > of
                          > > said cloud, soaring up the side of it, to14,000' and beyond in a cross
                          > > country
                          > > flight. This is not a big deal to hang gliding, but we have bones and
                          > > reflex
                          > > in our sails.
                          > >
                          > > To "live" through gusts, are "bones of some sort" to be used? Cambered
                          > > battens, a structure with reflex in the trailing edge? ala HG? or bridal
                          > > tech
                          > > as in PG? or both? Things that make you go hmmm.
                          > >
                          > > It takes vision, lessons learned from people such as you guys to advance
                          > the
                          > > sport. PLEASE respect each others opinions and try not to make blanket
                          > > statements that downplay others interests. At this point, if it is
                          > earnest,
                          > > we
                          > > all need each others input.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you all for the interesting comments, I enjoy the reading, albeit
                          I
                          > > still
                          > > have to learn a simple waterstart!
                          > >
                          > > adam
                          > >
                          > > Photograph from B.Thompson
                          > >
                          > > Colin Gowland wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > > I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or
                          tell
                          > me
                          > > > > where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you
                          > > operate
                          > > > > the VAOAS during a big gust? Can you change the AoA immediately
                          like
                          > > you
                          > > > > can with the trim loop on an AR5? I do not have any experience
                          > > > paragliding.
                          > > >
                          > > > Basically during a big gust you let out the middle line which releases
                          > > > pressures on the CD lines. It doesn't "spill" air like the AR5 does
                          but
                          > it
                          > > > does speed the kite up tremendously allowing a much easier push to the
                          > > edge
                          > > > of the window. You still have to physically edge the kite to the edge
                          of
                          > > the
                          > > > window but it's easier with a smaller AOA. When using just the normal
                          > VSS
                          > > > it's easy to notice the difference from the first knot to the third
                          > knot.
                          > > > The kite is noticeably faster with less grunt. However there is an
                          > optimum
                          > > > setting for every wind condition so the VAOAS let's you set that, on
                          the
                          > > > fly. If you want to sine the kite faster you just pull in the line. If
                          > you
                          > > > want to make the kite more stable with more "truck-like" pull then
                          just
                          > > let
                          > > > the line out. You can order the VAOAS from Ian Young in Australia for
                          > > about
                          > > > $60 AUD... it comes with color manual and some lines and pulleys and a
                          > > > cleat. IanYoung@... I'd love to give you a full diagram but
                          > > then
                          > > > you'd just make one yourself :)
                          > > >
                          > > > I spoke to
                          > > > > Michel at CA about the luffing problems that I experienced. He
                          > thought
                          > > > that
                          > > > > the VSS adjustment would handle the problem. I think that the
                          > volatile
                          > > > > conditions play a big part in the luffing problem. I would like to
                          > try
                          > > a
                          > > > CA
                          > > > > New Wave equipped with the VAOAS to see if that solves the luffing
                          > > > problem.
                          > > >
                          > > > These are truly crazy conditions you speak of and realize that many
                          > > inland
                          > > > lakes are not the same. I suppose the VSS on it's most stable setting
                          > > still
                          > > > wasn't enough to prevent the kite from luffing. With the VAOAS the
                          > stable
                          > > > end of the VSS is extended quite a bit... well you can actually
                          extended
                          > > it
                          > > > to a point where the kite is falling backwards down into the window
                          but
                          > > you
                          > > > wouldn't go that far... just a touch out from that point. I suppose if
                          > you
                          > > > order the VAOAS, you could request some sort of guarantee that it
                          would
                          > > > solve your luffing problems. If enough people get the VAOAS in action
                          > and
                          > > > working efficiently it will probably become standard on CA kites...
                          make
                          > > > that all foils.
                          > > >
                          > > > Colin
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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