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RE: [ksurfschool] AoA is not the only consideration

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  • Farnsworth, Kenny
    Colin, ... you ... Yes, you can still fly the kite with a twisted line, but not with several twists. With several twists the kite becomes uncontrollable. I
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 28, 2000
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      Colin,

      >Again, luffing can be avoided with the addition of AOA adjustment but if
      you
      >don't have AOA and the kite luffs and is about to unfold above the water
      >it's still easy to control the kite even with the lines "totally twisted".
      >Pulling on the left side of the bar still steers the left side of the kite.
      >There are just twists in the lines that can be removed later. Anyway, New
      >Wave luffing is very uncommon and impossible with the AOA sheeting.

      Yes, you can still fly the kite with a twisted line, but not with several
      twists. With several twists the kite becomes uncontrollable. I did learn
      with the CA New Wave to spin the bar as I saw the kite tumbling to the water
      in order to keep some control, but the luffing problem was never solved.

      >This scenario is completely avoided with the addition of VAOAS. Your
      Concept
      >Air will NEVER luff overhead again.

      Is the VAOAS the "trim strap" that has been coming stock on a 3 line bar CA
      New Wave or a new contraption? The trim strap that I used did not adjust
      AoA it only adjusted the flaps on the side. If the VA0AS is a new device,
      how does it adjust the AoA on the New Wave? Does the VAOAS now come stock
      with the CA New Wave or is it a 3rd party or homemade device?

      My other big problem with the CA New Wave was that the range was so limited.
      I would go out in light winds 8 - 10 mph. The next thing I knew the wind
      would be blowing 18, the CA New Wave would then overfly and luff every time
      I relaunched the kite. I do not have this problem with the AR5. It is true
      that I have less light wind capability (under 10 mph), but I can use my 15.5
      in winds ranging from 10 - 25 mph.

      Kenny

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Colin Gowland [mailto:colin-gowland@...]
      Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 8:04 AM
      To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] AoA is not the only consideration



      > I hope most beginners are not lost, we should probably try to explain in
      the
      > simplest terms possible. If you are a beginner, the bottom line to the
      > paragraph below is that if you live in an area with gusty conditions
      (inland
      > lakes and reservoirs), don't buy a foil. Buy an AR5 or convert a 2 line
      > Wipika or Naish inflatable to 4 lines.

      On the other hand, buy a foil if you want. They work fine, especially CA's
      with AOA adjustment added. In fact, I live in a gusty in land area and a few
      times I've been able to go out when an AR5 simply cannot be launched due to
      many "holes" in the wind. The New Wave keeps it's shape and is light which
      is superior for light winds especially.

      > I also want to add my two cents. Yes, a foil kite with AoA would be
      great,
      > but it also needs to be luff resistant in gusty winds and while jumping.

      This is easy. You simply increase the AOA to a point just before stall and a
      New Wave will never luff.

      > Let me explain. The AR5 is not immune from luffing in gusty winds, but at
      > least when it "falls out of the sky" it stays rigid. You have time to
      move
      > your board out of the way so that you can hang on when the kite powers up
      > near the water and the lines tend to stay pretty straight.

      It's hardly immune. It's PRONE to luffing in gusty winds.

      My experience
      > with a foil (Concept Air New Wave) was scary. When the Concept Air
      luffed,
      > the kite would fold in half and fall twisting the line several times.

      This scenario is completely avoided with the addition of VAOAS. Your Concept
      Air will NEVER luff overhead again.

      Often
      > it would unfold right above the water with the lines totally twisted and
      > power up directly downwind. This would result in a "death spiral" the
      kite
      > would twist over and over pulling me downwind at mach speed.

      Again, luffing can be avoided with the addition of AOA adjustment but if you
      don't have AOA and the kite luffs and is about to unfold above the water
      it's still easy to control the kite even with the lines "totally twisted".
      Pulling on the left side of the bar still steers the left side of the kite.
      There are just twists in the lines that can be removed later. Anyway, New
      Wave luffing is very uncommon and impossible with the AOA sheeting.

      After
      > swallowing half the lake, I would let go of the bar and guess what
      happened
      > - would the kite depower? NO. I would continue to be dragged by one hand
      > until the kite was so twisted that it would not launch any more.

      Kenny, you didn't have your safety leash setup properly. Also with the
      addition of VAOAS, deploying the safety leash increases the kites AOA
      dramatically while pulling on the brakes making for completely flawless
      depowering.

      You would
      > think that I tried flying the New Wave only once or twice in gusty
      > conditions, but I thought that I was doing something wrong. So, I asked
      for
      > advice from Concept Air and the ksurf egroup. I was told to adjust the
      VSS
      > knot(adjusts the angle of attack on the kite bridle lines). The
      adjustment
      > made the kite a little more luff resistant, but in super gusty conditions
      I
      > continued to experience the same luffing, being dragged across the lake
      > problems.

      I haven't experienced these problems (you definitely had a problem with your
      safety leash) but the AOA adjustment will prevent any luffing problems.

      > From experience, I would be very hesitant to launch a foil kite in gusty
      > conditions again. Thank heaven for the AR5!

      Actually, I'd be very hesitant to launch ANY kite in gusty conditions. I saw
      so many people in the gorge with AR5's that would luff overhead and then
      powerup just before hitting the sand resulting in; a) an insane death jerk
      which would drag them at least 100 feet. b) ripping the kite out of their
      hands endangering others although most of them had leashes on.

      BTW, nothing against AR5's here. They have INCREDIBLE range and a very
      comfortable sheeting system and they jump well. But if you don't have the
      money or don't want to spend the money or just like foils for some reason,
      you won't have these problems Kenny describes with the New Wave. Especially
      if you add the VAOAS.

      My 2 cents,
      Colin
    • Farnsworth, Kenny
      Colin, ... EX) ... I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or tell me where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 28, 2000
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        Colin,

        >New contraption. It works like a reverse paragliding speed system changing
        >the relation of the AB and CD bridles like the VSS but you can back it off
        >to the point that the kite is stalling to prevent luffing when the kite is
        >overhead. (Although I never had this problem with the New Wave, only the
        EX)
        >Unfortunately it is 3rd party but it is a commercial product.

        I am intrigued. Can you describe the VAOAS in physical terms or tell me
        where I can look at a diagram of one? In other words, how do you operate
        the VAOAS during a big gust? Can you change the AoA immediately like you
        can with the trim loop on an AR5? I do not have any experience paragliding.


        >That is great range from the AR5. I can use a 7.2 EX Wave (same power as
        9.3
        >New Wave) from 8-20 knots though which isn't that bad. Haven't tried to go
        >that high with the New Wave though. However, you are probably riding more
        >comfortably in 20. But I also can't say I've ever had my New Wave's luff
        >like you have. I have been caught out in 30 knots and gusty (northwest at
        >Rufus) with the 6.3 (getting killed mind you) but the kite never luffed. I
        >wonder if your kite had a problem or if you live in an exceptionally weird
        >spot! No doubt though about the AR5 and it's range.

        Yes, the 15.5 is not comfortable to fly above 22 mph, but you can still stay
        out on the water and the jumps are great. Yes again, I do live in a weird
        place, Salt Lake City, UT (the wind isn't the only weird thing about it).
        We often experience extremely gusty conditions with southern puffy winds
        that play absolute havoc with your kite. It is not uncommon to have gusts
        that exceed 15 mph over the average wind speed. In these type of
        conditions, I launch my kite in the water and hang on. I usually kite surf
        at a lake that it not frequented by boaters or beach goers. When it comes
        time to land, I drop my kite well away from the shore. This allows a good
        margin of safety in case a gust picks me up out of the water (I have been
        pulled 10 feet above the water in the trim loop on a 9.5 AR5). I spoke to
        Michel at CA about the luffing problems that I experienced. He thought that
        the VSS adjustment would handle the problem. I think that the volatile
        conditions play a big part in the luffing problem. I would like to try a CA
        New Wave equipped with the VAOAS to see if that solves the luffing problem.

        Kenny


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Colin Gowland [mailto:colin-gowland@...]
        Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 8:58 AM
        To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] AoA is not the only consideration


        > Yes, you can still fly the kite with a twisted line, but not with several
        > twists. With several twists the kite becomes uncontrollable. I did learn
        > with the CA New Wave to spin the bar as I saw the kite tumbling to the
        water
        > in order to keep some control, but the luffing problem was never solved.

        I see, never experienced that tumbling stuff myself.

        >
        > Is the VAOAS the "trim strap" that has been coming stock on a 3 line bar
        CA
        > New Wave or a new contraption? The trim strap that I used did not adjust
        > AoA it only adjusted the flaps on the side. If the VA0AS is a new device,
        > how does it adjust the AoA on the New Wave? Does the VAOAS now come stock
        > with the CA New Wave or is it a 3rd party or homemade device?

        New contraption. It works like a reverse paragliding speed system changing
        the relation of the AB and CD bridles like the VSS but you can back it off
        to the point that the kite is stalling to prevent luffing when the kite is
        overhead. (Although I never had this problem with the New Wave, only the EX)
        Unfortunately it is 3rd party but it is a commerical product.

        > My other big problem with the CA New Wave was that the range was so
        limited.
        > I would go out in light winds 8 - 10 mph. The next thing I knew the wind
        > would be blowing 18, the CA New Wave would then overfly and luff every
        time
        > I relaunched the kite. I do not have this problem with the AR5. It is
        true
        > that I have less light wind capability (under 10 mph), but I can use my
        15.5
        > in winds ranging from 10 - 25 mph.

        That is great range from the AR5. I can use a 7.2 EX Wave (same power as 9.3
        New Wave) from 8-20 knots though which isn't that bad. Haven't tried to go
        that high with the New Wave though. However, you are probably riding more
        comfortably in 20. But I also can't say I've ever had my New Wave's luff
        like you have. I have been caught out in 30 knots and gusty (northwest at
        Rufus) with the 6.3 (getting killed mind you) but the kite never luffed. I
        wonder if your kite had a problem or if you live in an exceptionally weird
        spot! No doubt though about the AR5 and it's range.

        Colin
      • Colin Gowland
        ... the ... (inland ... On the other hand, buy a foil if you want. They work fine, especially CA s with AOA adjustment added. In fact, I live in a gusty in
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 27, 2000
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          > I hope most beginners are not lost, we should probably try to explain in
          the
          > simplest terms possible. If you are a beginner, the bottom line to the
          > paragraph below is that if you live in an area with gusty conditions
          (inland
          > lakes and reservoirs), don't buy a foil. Buy an AR5 or convert a 2 line
          > Wipika or Naish inflatable to 4 lines.

          On the other hand, buy a foil if you want. They work fine, especially CA's
          with AOA adjustment added. In fact, I live in a gusty in land area and a few
          times I've been able to go out when an AR5 simply cannot be launched due to
          many "holes" in the wind. The New Wave keeps it's shape and is light which
          is superior for light winds especially.

          > I also want to add my two cents. Yes, a foil kite with AoA would be
          great,
          > but it also needs to be luff resistant in gusty winds and while jumping.

          This is easy. You simply increase the AOA to a point just before stall and a
          New Wave will never luff.

          > Let me explain. The AR5 is not immune from luffing in gusty winds, but at
          > least when it "falls out of the sky" it stays rigid. You have time to
          move
          > your board out of the way so that you can hang on when the kite powers up
          > near the water and the lines tend to stay pretty straight.

          It's hardly immune. It's PRONE to luffing in gusty winds.

          My experience
          > with a foil (Concept Air New Wave) was scary. When the Concept Air
          luffed,
          > the kite would fold in half and fall twisting the line several times.

          This scenario is completely avoided with the addition of VAOAS. Your Concept
          Air will NEVER luff overhead again.

          Often
          > it would unfold right above the water with the lines totally twisted and
          > power up directly downwind. This would result in a "death spiral" the
          kite
          > would twist over and over pulling me downwind at mach speed.

          Again, luffing can be avoided with the addition of AOA adjustment but if you
          don't have AOA and the kite luffs and is about to unfold above the water
          it's still easy to control the kite even with the lines "totally twisted".
          Pulling on the left side of the bar still steers the left side of the kite.
          There are just twists in the lines that can be removed later. Anyway, New
          Wave luffing is very uncommon and impossible with the AOA sheeting.

          After
          > swallowing half the lake, I would let go of the bar and guess what
          happened
          > - would the kite depower? NO. I would continue to be dragged by one hand
          > until the kite was so twisted that it would not launch any more.

          Kenny, you didn't have your safety leash setup properly. Also with the
          addition of VAOAS, deploying the safety leash increases the kites AOA
          dramatically while pulling on the brakes making for completely flawless
          depowering.

          You would
          > think that I tried flying the New Wave only once or twice in gusty
          > conditions, but I thought that I was doing something wrong. So, I asked
          for
          > advice from Concept Air and the ksurf egroup. I was told to adjust the
          VSS
          > knot(adjusts the angle of attack on the kite bridle lines). The
          adjustment
          > made the kite a little more luff resistant, but in super gusty conditions
          I
          > continued to experience the same luffing, being dragged across the lake
          > problems.

          I haven't experienced these problems (you definitely had a problem with your
          safety leash) but the AOA adjustment will prevent any luffing problems.

          > From experience, I would be very hesitant to launch a foil kite in gusty
          > conditions again. Thank heaven for the AR5!

          Actually, I'd be very hesitant to launch ANY kite in gusty conditions. I saw
          so many people in the gorge with AR5's that would luff overhead and then
          powerup just before hitting the sand resulting in; a) an insane death jerk
          which would drag them at least 100 feet. b) ripping the kite out of their
          hands endangering others although most of them had leashes on.

          BTW, nothing against AR5's here. They have INCREDIBLE range and a very
          comfortable sheeting system and they jump well. But if you don't have the
          money or don't want to spend the money or just like foils for some reason,
          you won't have these problems Kenny describes with the New Wave. Especially
          if you add the VAOAS.

          My 2 cents,
          Colin
        • Colin Gowland
          ... water ... I see, never experienced that tumbling stuff myself. ... CA ... New contraption. It works like a reverse paragliding speed system changing the
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 27, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            > Yes, you can still fly the kite with a twisted line, but not with several
            > twists. With several twists the kite becomes uncontrollable. I did learn
            > with the CA New Wave to spin the bar as I saw the kite tumbling to the
            water
            > in order to keep some control, but the luffing problem was never solved.

            I see, never experienced that tumbling stuff myself.

            >
            > Is the VAOAS the "trim strap" that has been coming stock on a 3 line bar
            CA
            > New Wave or a new contraption? The trim strap that I used did not adjust
            > AoA it only adjusted the flaps on the side. If the VA0AS is a new device,
            > how does it adjust the AoA on the New Wave? Does the VAOAS now come stock
            > with the CA New Wave or is it a 3rd party or homemade device?

            New contraption. It works like a reverse paragliding speed system changing
            the relation of the AB and CD bridles like the VSS but you can back it off
            to the point that the kite is stalling to prevent luffing when the kite is
            overhead. (Although I never had this problem with the New Wave, only the EX)
            Unfortunately it is 3rd party but it is a commerical product.

            > My other big problem with the CA New Wave was that the range was so
            limited.
            > I would go out in light winds 8 - 10 mph. The next thing I knew the wind
            > would be blowing 18, the CA New Wave would then overfly and luff every
            time
            > I relaunched the kite. I do not have this problem with the AR5. It is
            true
            > that I have less light wind capability (under 10 mph), but I can use my
            15.5
            > in winds ranging from 10 - 25 mph.

            That is great range from the AR5. I can use a 7.2 EX Wave (same power as 9.3
            New Wave) from 8-20 knots though which isn't that bad. Haven't tried to go
            that high with the New Wave though. However, you are probably riding more
            comfortably in 20. But I also can't say I've ever had my New Wave's luff
            like you have. I have been caught out in 30 knots and gusty (northwest at
            Rufus) with the 6.3 (getting killed mind you) but the kite never luffed. I
            wonder if your kite had a problem or if you live in an exceptionally weird
            spot! No doubt though about the AR5 and it's range.

            Colin
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