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RE: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?

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  • Kitepower Sydney
    G day Hung and George There is no such thing as first and second gen that is not an accurate way to describe the 2 types of kites that are being sold at the
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 8, 2006
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      G'day Hung and George

      There is no such thing as first and second gen that is not an accurate way
      to describe the 2 types of kites that are being sold at the moment.

      The Cabrinha Crossbow and Switchblade, Slingshot TD, Airush Halo, Liquid
      Force Assault, Takoon Nova, etc are all "bow" kite based on a design by
      Bruno Legainoux. Bruno invented the popular C shaped kites we have all been
      using too.

      Then there is another group of kites that are based on that design, but with
      enough differences so as not to infringe on the patent Bruno holds or so it
      would seem.

      First and second gen is marketing babble, sorry Hung.

      Bruno has responded to many enquiries on www.kiteforum.com do a search. You
      will find that there are specific differences, and trade offs for the
      different shaped kites.

      The so called second generation kites have straight trailing edges, are not
      as wide span, do not depower as well, have less refined bars and control
      systems, and simply just don't fly as nicely as the original designs from
      Bruno.

      Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
      refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
      are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
      even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
      overcome.

      Cya and

      Goodwinds

      Steve McCormack
      www.kitepower.com.au


      _____

      From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
      Sent: Wednesday, 8 March 2006 2:28 PM
      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


      I personally have not used the first generartion flat LEI but via direct
      talk with others who have tried it, the differences mainly in relaunch
      problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar pressure.

      I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs would not have the same
      problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs (third generation?)
      would solve all of the first generation weaknesses...

      The flatness of the kite directly influences its behaviour. The flatter
      the LEI, the more it flies like foil. The less flat the kite the more
      it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more familiar to most kiters.

      Hung.

      George Sarris wrote:

      >Hung,
      >How much difference is there between the "first
      >generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
      >Are the second generation kites less flat such as the
      >Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow? Or is it
      >bar pressure or something else?
      >
      >Thanks,
      >George
      >
      >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
      >
      > > Ishtar,
      > >
      > > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
      > >
      >http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20
      use
      > >
      > > . Also here is a very brief summary of kite
      > > designs:
      > > - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch,
      > > stable, low
      > > performance, non-depowerable
      > > - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to
      > > relaunch but
      > > reliable, non-depowerable
      > > - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
      > > depowerable, easy to relaunch
      > > - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure,
      > > depowerable
      > > - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
      > > depowerable, light bar pressure
      > > - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar
      > > pressure
      > > - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
      > > depowerable, light bar
      > > pressure, very easy to relaunch
      > >
      > > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow. Second
      > > generation: Waroo,
      > > Sonic, etc.
      > >
      > > Hung.
      > >
      > > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
      > >
      > > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
      > > could you point me to a history
      > > >of different kite design and performance. Could you
      > > also give a few examples of
      > > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
      > > >
      > > >hungvu2000@... wrote: But wouldn't that
      > > make it like the Seasmik that we
      > > >had few years ago?
      > > >
      > > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future
      > > kites should be
      > > >(both for water and snow).
      > > >
      > > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken
      > > loop is the safety
      > > >leash" concept a few years back and now the flat
      > > LEIs seems to deliver
      > > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
      > > >
      > > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
      > > some respects but the
      > > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
      > > >
      > > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
      > > flat) but most of them
      > > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this
      > > completely by being
      > > >less flat or a firmer LE.
      > > >
      > > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
      > > wind), I attached the
      > > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite
      > > to launch it at the
      > > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
      > > snowboard and casually
      > > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
      > > attached it to my
      > > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding
      > > on and slowly
      > > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
      > > amazing!
      > > >
      > > >Hung.
      > > >
      > > >George Sarris wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >Hung,
      > > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
      > > adding a
      > > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points not
      > > on the
      > > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?
      > > I've
      > > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've
      > > not
      > > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
      > > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a
      > > foil
      > > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
      > > versus
      > > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
      > > > >Thanks,
      > > > >George
      > > > >
      > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > George,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems
      > > due to
      > > > > > their flatness. The
      > > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.
      > > I
      > > > > > think that all future
      > > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove
      > > this
      > > > > > problem.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get
      > > the
      > > > > > "sled boosting" effect
      > > > > > as described in
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
      > > > > >
      > > > > > (heavy duty reading)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hung.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > George Sarris wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I
      > > have
      > > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
      > > > > > Supposedly
      > > > > > >after that happens, there is little control
      > > in
      > > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite
      > > by
      > > > > > late
      > > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
      > > would
      > > > > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a
      > > Cabrinha
      > > > > > Xbow
      > > > > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would
      > > consider
      > > > > > >purchasing one if the price was around
      > > $1200-$1300.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >George
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last
      > > couple
      > > > > > weeks
      > > > > > > > on snow, my response
      > > > > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that
      > > all
      > > > > > flat
      > > > > > > > LEIs are somewhat
      > > > > > > > similar).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > So far, there are almost no negative
      > > things
      > > > > > about
      > > > > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The positive things are:
      > > > > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
      > > > > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
      > > > > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether
      > > you need
      > > > > > it.
      > > > > > > > There was a time I
      > > > > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand,
      > > the
      > > > > > kite
      > > > > > > > lost control and shot
      > > > > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
      > > > > > around at
      > > > > > > > all for that.
      > > > > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
      > > > > > You
      > > > > > > > just let go off the
      > > > > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and
      > > hover at
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > window edge waiting
      > > > > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes
      > > up
      > > > > > slowly
      > > > > > > > and not dragging you
      > > > > > > > around like foil.
      > > > > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
      > > > > > feels
      > > > > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
      > > > > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver
      > > is
      > > > > > now
      > > > > > > > possible. For me
      > > > > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is
      > > excellent.
      > >
      >=== message truncated ===
      >
      >
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    • George Sarris
      Thanks Hung. I appreciate the information. George ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 8, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks Hung. I appreciate the information.

        George

        --- hungvu2000@... wrote:

        > I personally have not used the first generartion
        > flat LEI but via direct
        > talk with others who have tried it, the differences
        > mainly in relaunch
        > problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar
        > pressure.
        >
        > I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs
        > would not have the same
        > problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs
        > (third generation?)
        > would solve all of the first generation
        > weaknesses...
        >
        > The flatness of the kite directly influences its
        > behaviour. The flatter
        > the LEI, the more it flies like foil. The less flat
        > the kite the more
        > it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more
        > familiar to most kiters.
        >
        > Hung.
        >
        > George Sarris wrote:
        >
        > >Hung,
        > >How much difference is there between the "first
        > >generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
        > >Are the second generation kites less flat such as
        > the
        > >Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow? Or is it
        > >bar pressure or something else?
        > >
        > >Thanks,
        > >George
        > >
        > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
        > >
        > > > Ishtar,
        > > >
        > > > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
        > > >
        >
        >http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
        > > >
        > > > . Also here is a very brief summary of kite
        > > > designs:
        > > > - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to
        > relaunch,
        > > > stable, low
        > > > performance, non-depowerable
        > > > - Kiteski Kites: High performance,
        > cumbersome to
        > > > relaunch but
        > > > reliable, non-depowerable
        > > > - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
        > > > depowerable, easy to relaunch
        > > > - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar
        > pressure,
        > > > depowerable
        > > > - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
        > > > depowerable, light bar pressure
        > > > - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light
        > bar
        > > > pressure
        > > > - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
        > > > depowerable, light bar
        > > > pressure, very easy to relaunch
        > > >
        > > > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.
        > Second
        > > > generation: Waroo,
        > > > Sonic, etc.
        > > >
        > > > Hung.
        > > >
        > > > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
        > > >
        > > > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
        > > > could you point me to a history
        > > > >of different kite design and performance. Could
        > you
        > > > also give a few examples of
        > > > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
        > > > >
        > > > >hungvu2000@... wrote: But wouldn't that
        > > > make it like the Seasmik that we
        > > > >had few years ago?
        > > > >
        > > > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the
        > future
        > > > kites should be
        > > > >(both for water and snow).
        > > > >
        > > > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the
        > "chicken
        > > > loop is the safety
        > > > >leash" concept a few years back and now the
        > flat
        > > > LEIs seems to deliver
        > > > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
        > > > >
        > > > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
        > > > some respects but the
        > > > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
        > > > >
        > > > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
        > > > flat) but most of them
        > > > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate
        > this
        > > > completely by being
        > > > >less flat or a firmer LE.
        > > > >
        > > > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
        > > > wind), I attached the
        > > > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the
        > kite
        > > > to launch it at the
        > > > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
        > > > snowboard and casually
        > > > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
        > > > attached it to my
        > > > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard
        > binding
        > > > on and slowly
        > > > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
        > > > amazing!
        > > > >
        > > > >Hung.
        > > > >
        > > > >George Sarris wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > >Hung,
        > > > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
        > > > adding a
        > > > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points
        > not
        > > > on the
        > > > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a
        > foil?
        > > > I've
        > > > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but
        > I've
        > > > not
        > > > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus
        > bow
        > > > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try
        > a
        > > > foil
        > > > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
        > > > versus
        > > > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
        > > > > >Thanks,
        > > > > >George
        > > > > >
        > > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > George,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert
        > problems
        > > > due to
        > > > > > > their flatness. The
        > > > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to
        > invert.
        > > > I
        > > > > > > think that all future
        > > > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to
        > remove
        > > > this
        > > > > > > problem.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to
        > get
        > > > the
        > > > > > > "sled boosting" effect
        > > > > > > as described in
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > (heavy duty reading)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hung.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > George Sarris wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow
        > kite) I
        > > > have
        > > > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
        > > > > > > Supposedly
        > > > > > > >after that happens, there is little
        > control
        > > > in
        > > > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow
        > kite
        > > > by
        > > > > > > late
        > > > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • hungvu2000@rogers.com
        ... Thanks Steve. Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other kiters) and
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 8, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Kitepower Sydney wrote:

          >Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
          >refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
          >are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
          >even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
          >overcome.
          >
          >
          >
          Thanks Steve. Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
          in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
          kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
          Why did he stated MOST and not ALL? Aren't they pretty straight forward
          to fix?

          Hung.
        • Kitepower Sydney
          I guess thats because most of the problems are not real problems Hung. The problems have been blown out of proportion by pimps for other brands that did
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 8, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I guess thats because most of the problems are not real problems Hung. The
            "problems" have been blown out of proportion by pimps for other brands
            that did not or do not have a bow kite.
            So some "problems" are not problems at all, and therefore do not need to be
            fixed.

            All the flat and bow kites on the market have been out for max 6 months so I
            think it is a bit premature to be calling any of them second gen yet.

            Cya and

            Goodwinds

            Steve McCormack
            www.kitepower.com.au


            _____

            From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
            Sent: Thursday, 9 March 2006 10:39 AM
            To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


            Kitepower Sydney wrote:

            >Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
            >refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
            >are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
            >even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can
            be
            >overcome.
            >
            >
            >
            Thanks Steve. Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
            in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
            kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
            Why did he stated MOST and not ALL? Aren't they pretty straight forward
            to fix?

            Hung.



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            rfing&c=3&s=41&.sig=Afks9WONK-OzIKbJVtuYtw> fun Fun
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Fun&w1=Sport+fun&w2=Fun&w3=Kitesurfing&
            c=3&s=41&.sig=Sj-_6zKuaYXUxZJifkyC4A> Kitesurfing
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Kitesurfing&w1=Sport+fun&w2=Fun&w3=Kite
            surfing&c=3&s=41&.sig=PSOJPhOJnQgXbc6m-t582A>

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