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Re: [ksurfschool] Safe kite size to fly on land? Recommended larger trainer?

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  • Sara Gould
    Hi John, I m going to offer a varying opinion here... I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since I left the water. I got as far
    Message 1 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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      Hi John,

      I'm going to offer a varying opinion here...

      I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since
      I left the water. I got as far as body dragging, so expert kite surfer,
      I am not.

      However, I've been flying 4 line power kites for 2 years now, and I have
      to say the experience helped me understand the kite part of kite surfing
      quite well.

      I fly SkyTigers of various sizes (26sq ft to 60sq ft). These are ram
      air type kites and used often for buggying, or in my case skudding on
      the beach, or kite skating (on grass with allterrain rollerblades).

      If you've got room to fly, but no water I'd suggest getting something
      more sophisticated than a trainer... Especially if you're interested in
      kites for the sake of kites, not just for kite surfing. :)

      One thing I found though, I fly with 2 handles instead of a bar... This
      gives a lot more control as you can change the angle of attack just by
      the angle you hold the handle at. I haven't tried using a bar instead
      yet... But the handles also allow relaunching really easily when the
      kite lands leading edge down.

      www.cobrakites.com sells the SkyTigers that I use.

      Sara
    • Andre Ethier
      I ve been flying a 6m kite on land grassy field and I haven t found any problems. Remember that it isn t average wind speed you should worry about it s the
      Message 2 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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        I've been flying a 6m kite on land "grassy field" and
        I haven't found any problems. Remember that it isn't
        average wind speed you should worry about it's the
        gusts. Trainer kites are great for beginners but once
        you know how to fly a trainer kite you should move on
        to 4 line foil or lei kites.


        Although most lei kites can't be relaunched on a low
        resistance flat surfaces, Windwing has developed kites
        that do just that. Check out their JumpStart launch
        system, I haven't tried it but it looks good.
        http://www.windwing.com/Jumpstart

        Cheers

        --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
        ---------------------------------
        At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
        meter lei kite on
        the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
        important thing is
        to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to rocks
        or logs. Do
        not jump very high.

        Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage. You
        can buy a used
        lei for not much more $ and it is way more realistic.

        When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
        surface like snow
        or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
        slides too much.
        The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
        water.

        :-)
        Chris Glazier


        --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
        <jcasekim@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
        answer just one
        or
        > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
        >
        > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to
        fly on land?
        > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
        always easy for me
        to
        > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
        (about 87 kilos)
        and
        > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
        ranging from 8
        to
        > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
        time in the 9 to
        14
        > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some
        days.
        >
        > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
        5m kite with
        winds
        > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not
        in any danger
        of
        > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
        zone during
        gusts,
        > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I
        dug in my
        feet,
        > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the
        5m CO2 could
        > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
        sheeting system was
        > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
        hooked in (more
        > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
        land in 8 to
        18mph
        > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
        around with on
        land?
        >
        >
        > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been
        using a T-
        foil 1-
        > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
        My options
        seem
        > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2,
        or the
        Slingshot
        > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
        per hour where I
        > like to practice.
        >
        > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
        others? The 1m T-
        foil
        > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls,
        sometimes
        > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until
        either the
        wind
        > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
        again. Do all
        foil
        > trainers do this in lulls?
        >
        > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
        if they crash
        > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my
        2-line T-foil
        > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
        side, sometimes
        I
        > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
        re-launched from the
        LE-
        > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or
        5th) line?
        >
        > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking
        lot or grass)
        > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if
        you swim
        towards
        > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
        pulling on the
        front
        > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
        water will hold
        > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
        can roll it up
        on
        > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
        and re-launch.
        But
        > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
        LE and keep
        > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
        back?
        >
        > --John Kim




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      • Iain Wood
        ... A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the ground. Because
        Message 3 of 11 , May 20, 2004
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          On 19 May 2004, at 17:26, flkitesurfer wrote:
          >> 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
          >> leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
          >> this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
          >> can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
          >> down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?
          >
          > I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
          > provision.
          >
          >

          A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE
          down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the
          ground. Because it is pretty unstable it will usually flip round, at
          which point you release the brakes and off she goes. You can encourage
          the flip by a bit of steering input at the same time as pulling on the
          brakes. This is one of the major advantages of foils.

          Iain
        • John F. Kim
          First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful! Second, I took my first water lesson
          Message 4 of 11 , May 21, 2004
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            First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
            flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!

            Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
            wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
            body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
            Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the water
            (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up and
            upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the time.
            Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch it
            fairly easily each time with the Recon system.

            Quick summary of conditions:
            --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
            --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
            --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
            --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
            --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
            harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
            --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
            --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
            --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites as
            wind died down.
            --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and snowboarding
            experience but no previous water kiting experience.
            --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)

            Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
            --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds because
            it could hauled me around in a gust
            --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
            swimming towards the kite)
            --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
            --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
            --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
            --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
            --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
            --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like the
            one time I tried wakeboarding)
            --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
            downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
            --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
            active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
            practice)
            --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for untwisting
            lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar spinning)
            --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...

            As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil kite
            just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes sense
            for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy a
            2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into kiteskiing
            or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the LEI
            kite on (or at least near) the water.

            First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
            waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
            the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
            then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around my
            legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook, detaching
            me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite close
            to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged along
            slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
            because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised activating
            Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
            where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
            flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
            with the kite.

            In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see if
            that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the kite,
            but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because I
            had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
            wrapped up kite and called it a day.

            I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon, but
            it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the kite
            to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it crashed
            on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.

            All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
            KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco Bay
            area.

            --John Kim



            --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
            wrote:
            > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one
            or
            > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
            >
            > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
            > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me
            to
            > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
            and
          • Chris Glazier
            Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good luck and have fun. Chris G. ... water ... and ... time. ... it ... as ... snowboarding ...
            Message 5 of 11 , May 23, 2004
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              Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good
              luck and have fun.
              Chris G.

              --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
              wrote:
              > First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
              > flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!
              >
              > Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
              > wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
              > body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
              > Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the
              water
              > (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up
              and
              > upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the
              time.
              > Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch
              it
              > fairly easily each time with the Recon system.
              >
              > Quick summary of conditions:
              > --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
              > --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
              > --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
              > --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
              > --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
              > harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
              > --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
              > --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
              > --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites
              as
              > wind died down.
              > --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and
              snowboarding
              > experience but no previous water kiting experience.
              > --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)
              >
              > Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
              > --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds
              because
              > it could hauled me around in a gust
              > --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
              > swimming towards the kite)
              > --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
              > --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
              > --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
              > --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
              > --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
              > --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like
              the
              > one time I tried wakeboarding)
              > --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
              > downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
              > --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
              > active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
              > practice)
              > --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for
              untwisting
              > lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar
              spinning)
              > --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...
              >
              > As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil
              kite
              > just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes
              sense
              > for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy
              a
              > 2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into
              kiteskiing
              > or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the
              LEI
              > kite on (or at least near) the water.
              >
              > First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
              > waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
              > the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
              > then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around
              my
              > legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook,
              detaching
              > me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite
              close
              > to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged
              along
              > slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
              > because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised
              activating
              > Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
              > where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
              > flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
              > with the kite.
              >
              > In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see
              if
              > that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the
              kite,
              > but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because
              I
              > had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
              > wrapped up kite and called it a day.
              >
              > I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon,
              but
              > it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the
              kite
              > to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it
              crashed
              > on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.
              >
              > All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
              > KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco
              Bay
              > area.
              >
              > --John Kim
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just
              one
              > or
              > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
              > >
              > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on
              land?
              > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for
              me
              > to
              > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
              > and
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