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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Safe kite size to fly on land? Recommended larger trainer?

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  • George Sarris
    If the winds are fairly steady where you normally would fly your kite, then with your weight you could possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
    Message 1 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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      If the winds are fairly steady where you normally
      would fly your kite, then with your weight you could
      possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
      kts, and maybe up to 14 kts depending on how much you
      can depower the kite. If you are not hooked in to a
      chicken loop then you are limited to the depower you
      can achieve by the strap adjustment and the line
      attachment points at the kite. Gusty conditions are
      what causes most lofting. Also, one problem you might
      have on land is if you momentarily lose control of the
      kite and it flies across the power zone, you could be
      dragged and on land that can prove dangerous. I would
      recommend that you practice on a beach with nice soft
      water downwind. Also, on the water you can practice
      body dragging and learn to go upwind body dragging.
      If you lose your board, that will come in very handy
      to be able to body drag back upwind to it.

      Above all keep safety first.

      Cheers,
      George
      --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
      > At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
      > meter lei kite on
      > the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
      > important thing is
      > to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to
      > rocks or logs. Do
      > not jump very high.
      >
      > Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage.
      > You can buy a used
      > lei for not much more $ and it is way more
      > realistic.
      >
      > When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
      > surface like snow
      > or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
      > slides too much.
      > The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
      > water.
      >
      > :-)
      > Chris Glazier
      >
      >
      > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
      > <jcasekim@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
      > answer just one
      > or
      > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
      > >
      > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe
      > to fly on land?
      > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
      > always easy for me
      > to
      > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
      > (about 87 kilos)
      > and
      > > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
      > ranging from 8
      > to
      > > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
      > time in the 9 to
      > 14
      > > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on
      > some days.
      > >
      > > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
      > 5m kite with
      > winds
      > > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was
      > not in any danger
      > of
      > > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
      > zone during
      > gusts,
      > > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until
      > I dug in my
      > feet,
      > > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared,
      > the 5m CO2 could
      > > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
      > sheeting system was
      > > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
      > hooked in (more
      > > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
      > land in 8 to
      > 18mph
      > > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
      > around with on
      > land?
      > >
      > >
      > > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have
      > been using a T-
      > foil 1-
      > > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
      > My options
      > seem
      > > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp
      > 2, or the
      > Slingshot
      > > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
      > per hour where I
      > > like to practice.
      > >
      > > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
      > others? The 1m T-
      > foil
      > > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during
      > lulls, sometimes
      > > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation
      > until either the
      > wind
      > > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
      > again. Do all
      > foil
      > > trainers do this in lulls?
      > >
      > > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
      > if they crash
      > > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch
      > my 2-line T-foil
      > > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
      > side, sometimes
      > I
      > > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
      > re-launched from the
      > LE-
      > > down position or does this always require a 3rd
      > (or 5th) line?
      > >
      > > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land
      > (parking lot or grass)
      > > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that
      > if you swim
      > towards
      > > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
      > pulling on the
      > front
      > > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
      > water will hold
      > > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
      > can roll it up
      > on
      > > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
      > and re-launch.
      > But
      > > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
      > LE and keep
      > > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
      > back?
      > >
      > > --John Kim
      >
      >
      >





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    • Sara Gould
      Hi John, I m going to offer a varying opinion here... I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since I left the water. I got as far
      Message 2 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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        Hi John,

        I'm going to offer a varying opinion here...

        I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since
        I left the water. I got as far as body dragging, so expert kite surfer,
        I am not.

        However, I've been flying 4 line power kites for 2 years now, and I have
        to say the experience helped me understand the kite part of kite surfing
        quite well.

        I fly SkyTigers of various sizes (26sq ft to 60sq ft). These are ram
        air type kites and used often for buggying, or in my case skudding on
        the beach, or kite skating (on grass with allterrain rollerblades).

        If you've got room to fly, but no water I'd suggest getting something
        more sophisticated than a trainer... Especially if you're interested in
        kites for the sake of kites, not just for kite surfing. :)

        One thing I found though, I fly with 2 handles instead of a bar... This
        gives a lot more control as you can change the angle of attack just by
        the angle you hold the handle at. I haven't tried using a bar instead
        yet... But the handles also allow relaunching really easily when the
        kite lands leading edge down.

        www.cobrakites.com sells the SkyTigers that I use.

        Sara
      • Andre Ethier
        I ve been flying a 6m kite on land grassy field and I haven t found any problems. Remember that it isn t average wind speed you should worry about it s the
        Message 3 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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          I've been flying a 6m kite on land "grassy field" and
          I haven't found any problems. Remember that it isn't
          average wind speed you should worry about it's the
          gusts. Trainer kites are great for beginners but once
          you know how to fly a trainer kite you should move on
          to 4 line foil or lei kites.


          Although most lei kites can't be relaunched on a low
          resistance flat surfaces, Windwing has developed kites
          that do just that. Check out their JumpStart launch
          system, I haven't tried it but it looks good.
          http://www.windwing.com/Jumpstart

          Cheers

          --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
          ---------------------------------
          At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
          meter lei kite on
          the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
          important thing is
          to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to rocks
          or logs. Do
          not jump very high.

          Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage. You
          can buy a used
          lei for not much more $ and it is way more realistic.

          When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
          surface like snow
          or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
          slides too much.
          The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
          water.

          :-)
          Chris Glazier


          --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
          <jcasekim@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
          answer just one
          or
          > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
          >
          > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to
          fly on land?
          > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
          always easy for me
          to
          > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
          (about 87 kilos)
          and
          > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
          ranging from 8
          to
          > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
          time in the 9 to
          14
          > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some
          days.
          >
          > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
          5m kite with
          winds
          > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not
          in any danger
          of
          > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
          zone during
          gusts,
          > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I
          dug in my
          feet,
          > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the
          5m CO2 could
          > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
          sheeting system was
          > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
          hooked in (more
          > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
          land in 8 to
          18mph
          > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
          around with on
          land?
          >
          >
          > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been
          using a T-
          foil 1-
          > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
          My options
          seem
          > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2,
          or the
          Slingshot
          > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
          per hour where I
          > like to practice.
          >
          > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
          others? The 1m T-
          foil
          > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls,
          sometimes
          > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until
          either the
          wind
          > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
          again. Do all
          foil
          > trainers do this in lulls?
          >
          > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
          if they crash
          > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my
          2-line T-foil
          > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
          side, sometimes
          I
          > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
          re-launched from the
          LE-
          > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or
          5th) line?
          >
          > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking
          lot or grass)
          > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if
          you swim
          towards
          > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
          pulling on the
          front
          > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
          water will hold
          > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
          can roll it up
          on
          > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
          and re-launch.
          But
          > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
          LE and keep
          > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
          back?
          >
          > --John Kim




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        • Iain Wood
          ... A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the ground. Because
          Message 4 of 11 , May 20, 2004
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            On 19 May 2004, at 17:26, flkitesurfer wrote:
            >> 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
            >> leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
            >> this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
            >> can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
            >> down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?
            >
            > I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
            > provision.
            >
            >

            A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE
            down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the
            ground. Because it is pretty unstable it will usually flip round, at
            which point you release the brakes and off she goes. You can encourage
            the flip by a bit of steering input at the same time as pulling on the
            brakes. This is one of the major advantages of foils.

            Iain
          • John F. Kim
            First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful! Second, I took my first water lesson
            Message 5 of 11 , May 21, 2004
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              First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
              flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!

              Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
              wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
              body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
              Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the water
              (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up and
              upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the time.
              Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch it
              fairly easily each time with the Recon system.

              Quick summary of conditions:
              --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
              --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
              --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
              --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
              --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
              harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
              --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
              --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
              --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites as
              wind died down.
              --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and snowboarding
              experience but no previous water kiting experience.
              --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)

              Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
              --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds because
              it could hauled me around in a gust
              --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
              swimming towards the kite)
              --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
              --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
              --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
              --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
              --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
              --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like the
              one time I tried wakeboarding)
              --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
              downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
              --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
              active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
              practice)
              --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for untwisting
              lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar spinning)
              --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...

              As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil kite
              just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes sense
              for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy a
              2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into kiteskiing
              or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the LEI
              kite on (or at least near) the water.

              First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
              waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
              the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
              then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around my
              legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook, detaching
              me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite close
              to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged along
              slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
              because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised activating
              Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
              where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
              flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
              with the kite.

              In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see if
              that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the kite,
              but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because I
              had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
              wrapped up kite and called it a day.

              I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon, but
              it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the kite
              to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it crashed
              on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.

              All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
              KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco Bay
              area.

              --John Kim



              --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
              wrote:
              > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one
              or
              > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
              >
              > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
              > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me
              to
              > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
              and
            • Chris Glazier
              Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good luck and have fun. Chris G. ... water ... and ... time. ... it ... as ... snowboarding ...
              Message 6 of 11 , May 23, 2004
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                Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good
                luck and have fun.
                Chris G.

                --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                wrote:
                > First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
                > flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!
                >
                > Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
                > wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
                > body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
                > Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the
                water
                > (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up
                and
                > upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the
                time.
                > Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch
                it
                > fairly easily each time with the Recon system.
                >
                > Quick summary of conditions:
                > --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
                > --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
                > --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
                > --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
                > --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
                > harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
                > --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
                > --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
                > --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites
                as
                > wind died down.
                > --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and
                snowboarding
                > experience but no previous water kiting experience.
                > --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)
                >
                > Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
                > --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds
                because
                > it could hauled me around in a gust
                > --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
                > swimming towards the kite)
                > --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
                > --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
                > --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
                > --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
                > --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
                > --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like
                the
                > one time I tried wakeboarding)
                > --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
                > downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
                > --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
                > active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
                > practice)
                > --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for
                untwisting
                > lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar
                spinning)
                > --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...
                >
                > As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil
                kite
                > just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes
                sense
                > for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy
                a
                > 2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into
                kiteskiing
                > or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the
                LEI
                > kite on (or at least near) the water.
                >
                > First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
                > waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
                > the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
                > then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around
                my
                > legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook,
                detaching
                > me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite
                close
                > to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged
                along
                > slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
                > because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised
                activating
                > Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
                > where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
                > flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
                > with the kite.
                >
                > In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see
                if
                > that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the
                kite,
                > but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because
                I
                > had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
                > wrapped up kite and called it a day.
                >
                > I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon,
                but
                > it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the
                kite
                > to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it
                crashed
                > on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.
                >
                > All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
                > KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco
                Bay
                > area.
                >
                > --John Kim
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just
                one
                > or
                > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                > >
                > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on
                land?
                > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for
                me
                > to
                > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
                > and
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