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Re: Safe kite size to fly on land? Recommended larger trainer?

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  • flkitesurfer
    ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
    Message 1 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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      --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
      > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
      > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
      >
      > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
      > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
      > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
      > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
      > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
      > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
      >
      > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
      > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
      > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
      > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
      > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
      > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
      > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
      > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
      > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


      Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
      considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
      amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
      move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
      a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
      much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
      useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
      try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
      damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
      WAY up.

      For in-water training, make sure:

      1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

      2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
      and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

      3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
      range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
      to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
      Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

      4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
      zone at all times ideally.


      > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
      > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
      > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
      > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
      > like to practice.

      I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
      to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
      flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
      LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
      kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
      training for water kiteboarding.

      > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
      > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
      > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
      > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
      > trainers do this in lulls?


      > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
      > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
      > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
      > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
      > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

      I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
      provision.

      >
      > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
      > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
      > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
      > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
      > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
      > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
      > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
      > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

      You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
      and tear on the kite.


      > --John Kim
    • flkitesurfer
      ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
      Message 2 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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        --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
        > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
        > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
        >
        > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
        > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
        > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
        > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
        > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
        > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
        >
        > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
        > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
        > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
        > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
        > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
        > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
        > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
        > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
        > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


        Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
        considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
        amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
        move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
        a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
        much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
        useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
        try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
        damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
        WAY up.

        For in-water training, make sure:

        1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

        2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
        and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

        3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
        range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
        to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
        Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

        4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
        zone at all times ideally.


        > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
        > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
        > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
        > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
        > like to practice.

        I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
        to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
        flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
        LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
        kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
        training for water kiteboarding.

        > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
        > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
        > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
        > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
        > trainers do this in lulls?


        > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
        > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
        > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
        > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
        > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

        I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
        provision.

        >
        > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
        > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
        > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
        > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
        > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
        > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
        > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
        > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

        You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
        and tear on the kite.


        > --John Kim
      • flkitesurfer
        ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
        Message 3 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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          --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
          > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
          > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
          >
          > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
          > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
          > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
          > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
          > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
          > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
          >
          > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
          > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
          > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
          > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
          > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
          > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
          > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
          > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
          > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


          Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
          considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
          amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
          move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
          a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
          much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
          useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
          try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
          damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
          WAY up.

          For in-water training, make sure:

          1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

          2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
          and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

          3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
          range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
          to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
          Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

          4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
          zone at all times ideally.


          > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
          > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
          > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
          > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
          > like to practice.

          I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
          to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
          flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
          LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
          kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
          training for water kiteboarding.

          > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
          > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
          > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
          > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
          > trainers do this in lulls?


          > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
          > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
          > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
          > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
          > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

          I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
          provision.

          >
          > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
          > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
          > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
          > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
          > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
          > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
          > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
          > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

          You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
          and tear on the kite.


          > --John Kim
        • George Sarris
          If the winds are fairly steady where you normally would fly your kite, then with your weight you could possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
          Message 4 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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            If the winds are fairly steady where you normally
            would fly your kite, then with your weight you could
            possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
            kts, and maybe up to 14 kts depending on how much you
            can depower the kite. If you are not hooked in to a
            chicken loop then you are limited to the depower you
            can achieve by the strap adjustment and the line
            attachment points at the kite. Gusty conditions are
            what causes most lofting. Also, one problem you might
            have on land is if you momentarily lose control of the
            kite and it flies across the power zone, you could be
            dragged and on land that can prove dangerous. I would
            recommend that you practice on a beach with nice soft
            water downwind. Also, on the water you can practice
            body dragging and learn to go upwind body dragging.
            If you lose your board, that will come in very handy
            to be able to body drag back upwind to it.

            Above all keep safety first.

            Cheers,
            George
            --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
            > At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
            > meter lei kite on
            > the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
            > important thing is
            > to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to
            > rocks or logs. Do
            > not jump very high.
            >
            > Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage.
            > You can buy a used
            > lei for not much more $ and it is way more
            > realistic.
            >
            > When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
            > surface like snow
            > or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
            > slides too much.
            > The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
            > water.
            >
            > :-)
            > Chris Glazier
            >
            >
            > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
            > <jcasekim@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
            > answer just one
            > or
            > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
            > >
            > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe
            > to fly on land?
            > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
            > always easy for me
            > to
            > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
            > (about 87 kilos)
            > and
            > > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
            > ranging from 8
            > to
            > > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
            > time in the 9 to
            > 14
            > > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on
            > some days.
            > >
            > > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
            > 5m kite with
            > winds
            > > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was
            > not in any danger
            > of
            > > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
            > zone during
            > gusts,
            > > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until
            > I dug in my
            > feet,
            > > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared,
            > the 5m CO2 could
            > > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
            > sheeting system was
            > > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
            > hooked in (more
            > > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
            > land in 8 to
            > 18mph
            > > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
            > around with on
            > land?
            > >
            > >
            > > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have
            > been using a T-
            > foil 1-
            > > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
            > My options
            > seem
            > > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp
            > 2, or the
            > Slingshot
            > > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
            > per hour where I
            > > like to practice.
            > >
            > > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
            > others? The 1m T-
            > foil
            > > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during
            > lulls, sometimes
            > > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation
            > until either the
            > wind
            > > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
            > again. Do all
            > foil
            > > trainers do this in lulls?
            > >
            > > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
            > if they crash
            > > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch
            > my 2-line T-foil
            > > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
            > side, sometimes
            > I
            > > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
            > re-launched from the
            > LE-
            > > down position or does this always require a 3rd
            > (or 5th) line?
            > >
            > > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land
            > (parking lot or grass)
            > > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that
            > if you swim
            > towards
            > > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
            > pulling on the
            > front
            > > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
            > water will hold
            > > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
            > can roll it up
            > on
            > > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
            > and re-launch.
            > But
            > > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
            > LE and keep
            > > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
            > back?
            > >
            > > --John Kim
            >
            >
            >





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          • Sara Gould
            Hi John, I m going to offer a varying opinion here... I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since I left the water. I got as far
            Message 5 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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              Hi John,

              I'm going to offer a varying opinion here...

              I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since
              I left the water. I got as far as body dragging, so expert kite surfer,
              I am not.

              However, I've been flying 4 line power kites for 2 years now, and I have
              to say the experience helped me understand the kite part of kite surfing
              quite well.

              I fly SkyTigers of various sizes (26sq ft to 60sq ft). These are ram
              air type kites and used often for buggying, or in my case skudding on
              the beach, or kite skating (on grass with allterrain rollerblades).

              If you've got room to fly, but no water I'd suggest getting something
              more sophisticated than a trainer... Especially if you're interested in
              kites for the sake of kites, not just for kite surfing. :)

              One thing I found though, I fly with 2 handles instead of a bar... This
              gives a lot more control as you can change the angle of attack just by
              the angle you hold the handle at. I haven't tried using a bar instead
              yet... But the handles also allow relaunching really easily when the
              kite lands leading edge down.

              www.cobrakites.com sells the SkyTigers that I use.

              Sara
            • Andre Ethier
              I ve been flying a 6m kite on land grassy field and I haven t found any problems. Remember that it isn t average wind speed you should worry about it s the
              Message 6 of 11 , May 19, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                I've been flying a 6m kite on land "grassy field" and
                I haven't found any problems. Remember that it isn't
                average wind speed you should worry about it's the
                gusts. Trainer kites are great for beginners but once
                you know how to fly a trainer kite you should move on
                to 4 line foil or lei kites.


                Although most lei kites can't be relaunched on a low
                resistance flat surfaces, Windwing has developed kites
                that do just that. Check out their JumpStart launch
                system, I haven't tried it but it looks good.
                http://www.windwing.com/Jumpstart

                Cheers

                --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
                ---------------------------------
                At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
                meter lei kite on
                the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
                important thing is
                to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to rocks
                or logs. Do
                not jump very high.

                Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage. You
                can buy a used
                lei for not much more $ and it is way more realistic.

                When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
                surface like snow
                or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
                slides too much.
                The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
                water.

                :-)
                Chris Glazier


                --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
                <jcasekim@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
                answer just one
                or
                > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                >
                > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to
                fly on land?
                > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
                always easy for me
                to
                > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
                (about 87 kilos)
                and
                > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
                ranging from 8
                to
                > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
                time in the 9 to
                14
                > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some
                days.
                >
                > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
                5m kite with
                winds
                > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not
                in any danger
                of
                > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
                zone during
                gusts,
                > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I
                dug in my
                feet,
                > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the
                5m CO2 could
                > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
                sheeting system was
                > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
                hooked in (more
                > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
                land in 8 to
                18mph
                > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
                around with on
                land?
                >
                >
                > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been
                using a T-
                foil 1-
                > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
                My options
                seem
                > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2,
                or the
                Slingshot
                > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
                per hour where I
                > like to practice.
                >
                > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
                others? The 1m T-
                foil
                > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls,
                sometimes
                > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until
                either the
                wind
                > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
                again. Do all
                foil
                > trainers do this in lulls?
                >
                > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
                if they crash
                > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my
                2-line T-foil
                > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
                side, sometimes
                I
                > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
                re-launched from the
                LE-
                > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or
                5th) line?
                >
                > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking
                lot or grass)
                > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if
                you swim
                towards
                > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
                pulling on the
                front
                > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
                water will hold
                > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
                can roll it up
                on
                > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
                and re-launch.
                But
                > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
                LE and keep
                > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
                back?
                >
                > --John Kim




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              • Iain Wood
                ... A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the ground. Because
                Message 7 of 11 , May 20, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 19 May 2004, at 17:26, flkitesurfer wrote:
                  >> 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
                  >> leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
                  >> this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
                  >> can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
                  >> down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?
                  >
                  > I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
                  > provision.
                  >
                  >

                  A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE
                  down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the
                  ground. Because it is pretty unstable it will usually flip round, at
                  which point you release the brakes and off she goes. You can encourage
                  the flip by a bit of steering input at the same time as pulling on the
                  brakes. This is one of the major advantages of foils.

                  Iain
                • John F. Kim
                  First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful! Second, I took my first water lesson
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 21, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
                    flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!

                    Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
                    wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
                    body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
                    Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the water
                    (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up and
                    upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the time.
                    Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch it
                    fairly easily each time with the Recon system.

                    Quick summary of conditions:
                    --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
                    --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
                    --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
                    --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
                    --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
                    harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
                    --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
                    --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
                    --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites as
                    wind died down.
                    --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and snowboarding
                    experience but no previous water kiting experience.
                    --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)

                    Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
                    --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds because
                    it could hauled me around in a gust
                    --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
                    swimming towards the kite)
                    --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
                    --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
                    --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
                    --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
                    --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
                    --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like the
                    one time I tried wakeboarding)
                    --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
                    downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
                    --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
                    active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
                    practice)
                    --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for untwisting
                    lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar spinning)
                    --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...

                    As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil kite
                    just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes sense
                    for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy a
                    2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into kiteskiing
                    or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the LEI
                    kite on (or at least near) the water.

                    First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
                    waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
                    the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
                    then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around my
                    legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook, detaching
                    me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite close
                    to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged along
                    slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
                    because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised activating
                    Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
                    where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
                    flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
                    with the kite.

                    In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see if
                    that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the kite,
                    but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because I
                    had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
                    wrapped up kite and called it a day.

                    I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon, but
                    it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the kite
                    to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it crashed
                    on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.

                    All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
                    KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco Bay
                    area.

                    --John Kim



                    --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one
                    or
                    > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                    >
                    > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
                    > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me
                    to
                    > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
                    and
                  • Chris Glazier
                    Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good luck and have fun. Chris G. ... water ... and ... time. ... it ... as ... snowboarding ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 23, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good
                      luck and have fun.
                      Chris G.

                      --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
                      > flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!
                      >
                      > Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
                      > wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
                      > body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
                      > Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the
                      water
                      > (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up
                      and
                      > upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the
                      time.
                      > Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch
                      it
                      > fairly easily each time with the Recon system.
                      >
                      > Quick summary of conditions:
                      > --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
                      > --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
                      > --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
                      > --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
                      > --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
                      > harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
                      > --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
                      > --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
                      > --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites
                      as
                      > wind died down.
                      > --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and
                      snowboarding
                      > experience but no previous water kiting experience.
                      > --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)
                      >
                      > Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
                      > --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds
                      because
                      > it could hauled me around in a gust
                      > --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
                      > swimming towards the kite)
                      > --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
                      > --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
                      > --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
                      > --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
                      > --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
                      > --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like
                      the
                      > one time I tried wakeboarding)
                      > --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
                      > downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
                      > --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
                      > active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
                      > practice)
                      > --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for
                      untwisting
                      > lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar
                      spinning)
                      > --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...
                      >
                      > As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil
                      kite
                      > just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes
                      sense
                      > for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy
                      a
                      > 2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into
                      kiteskiing
                      > or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the
                      LEI
                      > kite on (or at least near) the water.
                      >
                      > First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
                      > waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
                      > the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
                      > then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around
                      my
                      > legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook,
                      detaching
                      > me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite
                      close
                      > to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged
                      along
                      > slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
                      > because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised
                      activating
                      > Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
                      > where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
                      > flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
                      > with the kite.
                      >
                      > In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see
                      if
                      > that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the
                      kite,
                      > but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because
                      I
                      > had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
                      > wrapped up kite and called it a day.
                      >
                      > I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon,
                      but
                      > it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the
                      kite
                      > to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it
                      crashed
                      > on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.
                      >
                      > All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
                      > KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco
                      Bay
                      > area.
                      >
                      > --John Kim
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just
                      one
                      > or
                      > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                      > >
                      > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on
                      land?
                      > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for
                      me
                      > to
                      > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
                      > and
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