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Safe kite size to fly on land? Recommended larger trainer?

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  • John F. Kim
    Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or two--don t need to try to answer all 5! 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe
    Message 1 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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      Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
      two--don't need to try to answer all 5!

      1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
      I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
      get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
      wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
      18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
      mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.

      I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
      ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
      being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
      it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
      so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
      have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
      pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
      power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
      wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


      2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
      meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
      to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
      B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
      like to practice.

      3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
      is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
      inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
      picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
      trainers do this in lulls?

      4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
      leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
      this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
      can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
      down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

      5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
      when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
      the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
      lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
      the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
      its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
      on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
      sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

      --John Kim
    • Chris Glazier
      At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9 meter lei kite on the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most important thing is to have soft sand
      Message 2 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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        At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9 meter lei kite on
        the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most important thing is
        to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to rocks or logs. Do
        not jump very high.

        Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage. You can buy a used
        lei for not much more $ and it is way more realistic.

        When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth surface like snow
        or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it slides too much.
        The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow water.

        :-)
        Chris Glazier


        --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
        wrote:
        > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one
        or
        > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
        >
        > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
        > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me
        to
        > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
        and
        > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8
        to
        > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to
        14
        > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
        >
        > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with
        winds
        > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger
        of
        > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during
        gusts,
        > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my
        feet,
        > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
        > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
        > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
        > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to
        18mph
        > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on
        land?
        >
        >
        > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-
        foil 1-
        > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options
        seem
        > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the
        Slingshot
        > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
        > like to practice.
        >
        > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-
        foil
        > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
        > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the
        wind
        > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all
        foil
        > trainers do this in lulls?
        >
        > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
        > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
        > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes
        I
        > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the
        LE-
        > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?
        >
        > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
        > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim
        towards
        > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the
        front
        > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
        > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up
        on
        > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch.
        But
        > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
        > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?
        >
        > --John Kim
      • flkitesurfer
        ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
        Message 3 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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          --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
          > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
          > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
          >
          > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
          > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
          > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
          > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
          > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
          > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
          >
          > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
          > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
          > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
          > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
          > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
          > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
          > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
          > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
          > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


          Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
          considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
          amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
          move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
          a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
          much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
          useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
          try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
          damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
          WAY up.

          For in-water training, make sure:

          1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

          2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
          and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

          3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
          range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
          to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
          Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

          4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
          zone at all times ideally.


          > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
          > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
          > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
          > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
          > like to practice.

          I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
          to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
          flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
          LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
          kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
          training for water kiteboarding.

          > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
          > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
          > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
          > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
          > trainers do this in lulls?


          > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
          > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
          > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
          > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
          > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

          I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
          provision.

          >
          > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
          > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
          > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
          > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
          > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
          > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
          > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
          > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

          You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
          and tear on the kite.


          > --John Kim
        • flkitesurfer
          ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
          Message 4 of 11 , May 19, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
            > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
            > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
            >
            > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
            > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
            > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
            > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
            > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
            > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
            >
            > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
            > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
            > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
            > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
            > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
            > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
            > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
            > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
            > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


            Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
            considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
            amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
            move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
            a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
            much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
            useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
            try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
            damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
            WAY up.

            For in-water training, make sure:

            1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

            2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
            and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

            3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
            range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
            to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
            Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

            4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
            zone at all times ideally.


            > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
            > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
            > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
            > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
            > like to practice.

            I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
            to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
            flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
            LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
            kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
            training for water kiteboarding.

            > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
            > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
            > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
            > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
            > trainers do this in lulls?


            > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
            > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
            > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
            > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
            > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

            I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
            provision.

            >
            > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
            > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
            > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
            > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
            > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
            > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
            > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
            > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

            You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
            and tear on the kite.


            > --John Kim
          • flkitesurfer
            ... Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair amount of time on a
            Message 5 of 11 , May 19, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...> wrote:
              > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one or
              > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
              >
              > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
              > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me to
              > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos) and
              > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds ranging from 8 to
              > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the time in the 9 to 14
              > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some days.
              >
              > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2 5m kite with winds
              > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not in any danger of
              > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power zone during gusts,
              > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I dug in my feet,
              > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the 5m CO2 could
              > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the sheeting system was
              > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not hooked in (more
              > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on land in 8 to 18mph
              > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool around with on land?


              Normally, I would say a 5 m LEI is about the largest sized kite to
              considering using on land for training. The idea is to spend a fair
              amount of time on a trainer kite to learn basic kite control. Then to
              move on to a 5 m on leaders only or perhaps 15 m lines ( you could use
              a 30 m line set folded in half). Then off to the water with anything
              much larger than that for body dragging. You can only gain so much
              useful experience on land with in water kiteboarding in mind. Can you
              try this with a larger kite on land? Sure you can but the odds of
              damaging your expensive kite, yourself, bystanders or our access go
              WAY up.

              For in-water training, make sure:

              1. You are using a tested, reliable kite leash.

              2. Winds are side or side onshore shore and NOT onshore or offshore
              and ideally around 10 to 15 kts. max.

              3. Your type and size kite are appropriate for the wind and gust
              range per the manufacturer's table. Your kite should be in the lower
              to mid range per the manufacturers spec's. and NOT in the upper range.
              Exceesively gusty conditions should be avoided.

              4.. There are NO bystanders within a 300 ft. (100 m) downwind buffer
              zone at all times ideally.


              > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been using a T-foil 1-
              > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer. My options seem
              > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2, or the Slingshot
              > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles per hour where I
              > like to practice.

              I would guess that any of those should work. Although when it comes
              to foil trainer kites around 2 m is normally fine. The power and
              flight characteristics of the trainer are NOT that similar to actual
              LEI. So, unless you wanted a larger trainer kite for land or snow
              kiteboarding, I wouldn't bother getting something more powerful for
              training for water kiteboarding.

              > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than others? The 1m T-foil
              > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls, sometimes
              > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until either the wind
              > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up again. Do all foil
              > trainers do this in lulls?


              > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
              > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
              > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
              > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
              > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?

              I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
              provision.

              >
              > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking lot or grass)
              > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if you swim towards
              > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly pulling on the front
              > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the water will hold
              > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you can roll it up on
              > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window, and re-launch. But
              > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its LE and keep
              > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its back?

              You can relaunch an LEI on land this way but it will increase the wear
              and tear on the kite.


              > --John Kim
            • George Sarris
              If the winds are fairly steady where you normally would fly your kite, then with your weight you could possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
              Message 6 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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                If the winds are fairly steady where you normally
                would fly your kite, then with your weight you could
                possibly fly up to a 20m LEI kite at winds of 9 to 12
                kts, and maybe up to 14 kts depending on how much you
                can depower the kite. If you are not hooked in to a
                chicken loop then you are limited to the depower you
                can achieve by the strap adjustment and the line
                attachment points at the kite. Gusty conditions are
                what causes most lofting. Also, one problem you might
                have on land is if you momentarily lose control of the
                kite and it flies across the power zone, you could be
                dragged and on land that can prove dangerous. I would
                recommend that you practice on a beach with nice soft
                water downwind. Also, on the water you can practice
                body dragging and learn to go upwind body dragging.
                If you lose your board, that will come in very handy
                to be able to body drag back upwind to it.

                Above all keep safety first.

                Cheers,
                George
                --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
                > At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
                > meter lei kite on
                > the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
                > important thing is
                > to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to
                > rocks or logs. Do
                > not jump very high.
                >
                > Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage.
                > You can buy a used
                > lei for not much more $ and it is way more
                > realistic.
                >
                > When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
                > surface like snow
                > or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
                > slides too much.
                > The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
                > water.
                >
                > :-)
                > Chris Glazier
                >
                >
                > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
                > <jcasekim@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
                > answer just one
                > or
                > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                > >
                > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe
                > to fly on land?
                > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
                > always easy for me
                > to
                > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
                > (about 87 kilos)
                > and
                > > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
                > ranging from 8
                > to
                > > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
                > time in the 9 to
                > 14
                > > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on
                > some days.
                > >
                > > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
                > 5m kite with
                > winds
                > > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was
                > not in any danger
                > of
                > > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
                > zone during
                > gusts,
                > > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until
                > I dug in my
                > feet,
                > > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared,
                > the 5m CO2 could
                > > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
                > sheeting system was
                > > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
                > hooked in (more
                > > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
                > land in 8 to
                > 18mph
                > > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
                > around with on
                > land?
                > >
                > >
                > > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have
                > been using a T-
                > foil 1-
                > > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
                > My options
                > seem
                > > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp
                > 2, or the
                > Slingshot
                > > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
                > per hour where I
                > > like to practice.
                > >
                > > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
                > others? The 1m T-
                > foil
                > > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during
                > lulls, sometimes
                > > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation
                > until either the
                > wind
                > > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
                > again. Do all
                > foil
                > > trainers do this in lulls?
                > >
                > > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
                > if they crash
                > > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch
                > my 2-line T-foil
                > > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
                > side, sometimes
                > I
                > > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
                > re-launched from the
                > LE-
                > > down position or does this always require a 3rd
                > (or 5th) line?
                > >
                > > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land
                > (parking lot or grass)
                > > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that
                > if you swim
                > towards
                > > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
                > pulling on the
                > front
                > > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
                > water will hold
                > > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
                > can roll it up
                > on
                > > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
                > and re-launch.
                > But
                > > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
                > LE and keep
                > > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
                > back?
                > >
                > > --John Kim
                >
                >
                >





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              • Sara Gould
                Hi John, I m going to offer a varying opinion here... I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since I left the water. I got as far
                Message 7 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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                  Hi John,

                  I'm going to offer a varying opinion here...

                  I had my first lesson last weekend and have had kites on the brain since
                  I left the water. I got as far as body dragging, so expert kite surfer,
                  I am not.

                  However, I've been flying 4 line power kites for 2 years now, and I have
                  to say the experience helped me understand the kite part of kite surfing
                  quite well.

                  I fly SkyTigers of various sizes (26sq ft to 60sq ft). These are ram
                  air type kites and used often for buggying, or in my case skudding on
                  the beach, or kite skating (on grass with allterrain rollerblades).

                  If you've got room to fly, but no water I'd suggest getting something
                  more sophisticated than a trainer... Especially if you're interested in
                  kites for the sake of kites, not just for kite surfing. :)

                  One thing I found though, I fly with 2 handles instead of a bar... This
                  gives a lot more control as you can change the angle of attack just by
                  the angle you hold the handle at. I haven't tried using a bar instead
                  yet... But the handles also allow relaunching really easily when the
                  kite lands leading edge down.

                  www.cobrakites.com sells the SkyTigers that I use.

                  Sara
                • Andre Ethier
                  I ve been flying a 6m kite on land grassy field and I haven t found any problems. Remember that it isn t average wind speed you should worry about it s the
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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                    I've been flying a 6m kite on land "grassy field" and
                    I haven't found any problems. Remember that it isn't
                    average wind speed you should worry about it's the
                    gusts. Trainer kites are great for beginners but once
                    you know how to fly a trainer kite you should move on
                    to 4 line foil or lei kites.


                    Although most lei kites can't be relaunched on a low
                    resistance flat surfaces, Windwing has developed kites
                    that do just that. Check out their JumpStart launch
                    system, I haven't tried it but it looks good.
                    http://www.windwing.com/Jumpstart

                    Cheers

                    --- Chris Glazier <cglazier@...> wrote:
                    ---------------------------------
                    At your weight you should be able to fly a 7 or 9
                    meter lei kite on
                    the beach when the wind is under 20mph. The most
                    important thing is
                    to have soft sand downwind of you as opposed to rocks
                    or logs. Do
                    not jump very high.

                    Don't waste money on trainer kites at your stage. You
                    can buy a used
                    lei for not much more $ and it is way more realistic.

                    When a lei kite is leading edge down on a smooth
                    surface like snow
                    or ice it cannot be relaunched normally since it
                    slides too much.
                    The best place to practise relaunching is in shallow
                    water.

                    :-)
                    Chris Glazier


                    --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim"
                    <jcasekim@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to
                    answer just one
                    or
                    > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                    >
                    > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to
                    fly on land?
                    > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not
                    always easy for me
                    to
                    > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs
                    (about 87 kilos)
                    and
                    > wind where I'm looking at doing this in has winds
                    ranging from 8
                    to
                    > 18 miles per hour, with wind spending most of the
                    time in the 9 to
                    14
                    > mph range, but potential gusts up to 20 mph on some
                    days.
                    >
                    > I took a land-based class with a 2004 Cabrinha CO2
                    5m kite with
                    winds
                    > ranging from 12 to 18 mph and I felt like I was not
                    in any danger
                    of
                    > being lofted. When I took the kite into the power
                    zone during
                    gusts,
                    > it did pull me long the ground a little bit until I
                    dug in my
                    feet,
                    > so in a stronger gust or if I were not prepared, the
                    5m CO2 could
                    > have pulled me off my feet. In this case the
                    sheeting system was
                    > pulled all the way in (max depower) but I was not
                    hooked in (more
                    > power). Could I safely use a 7m or 9m LEI kite on
                    land in 8 to
                    18mph
                    > wind (not hooked in), or is that too big to fool
                    around with on
                    land?
                    >
                    >
                    > 2) What is a good "larger" trainer kite, I have been
                    using a T-
                    foil 1-
                    > meter trainer kite and want a larger foil trainer.
                    My options
                    seem
                    > to be the T-foil 4-meter kite, the Slingshot Wasp 2,
                    or the
                    Slingshot
                    > B2 or B3. Again, normal wind range 8 to 18 miles
                    per hour where I
                    > like to practice.
                    >
                    > 3)Are some trainers significantly better than
                    others? The 1m T-
                    foil
                    > is a lot of fun to fly but luffs badly during lulls,
                    sometimes
                    > inverting and doing a "falling leaf" imitation until
                    either the
                    wind
                    > picks up again or I yank on the bar to fill it up
                    again. Do all
                    foil
                    > trainers do this in lulls?
                    >
                    > 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land
                    if they crash
                    > leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my
                    2-line T-foil
                    > this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or
                    side, sometimes
                    I
                    > can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be
                    re-launched from the
                    LE-
                    > down position or does this always require a 3rd (or
                    5th) line?
                    >
                    > 5) Can a LEI be re-launched on smooth land (parking
                    lot or grass)
                    > when it crashes leading edge down? It seems that if
                    you swim
                    towards
                    > the kite in the water with enough wind (possibly
                    pulling on the
                    front
                    > lines), the friction and/or surface tension of the
                    water will hold
                    > the LE so the kite can flip on it's back, then you
                    can roll it up
                    on
                    > its side, work it to the edge of the wind window,
                    and re-launch.
                    But
                    > on smooth land, wouldn't the kite just stay on its
                    LE and keep
                    > sliding away from you instead of flipping onto its
                    back?
                    >
                    > --John Kim




                    If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
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                  • Iain Wood
                    ... A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the ground. Because
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 20, 2004
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                      On 19 May 2004, at 17:26, flkitesurfer wrote:
                      >> 4) Can 2-line foil trainers be re-launched on land if they crash
                      >> leading-edge down? I generally cannot re-launch my 2-line T-foil
                      >> this way, though if it crashes on trailing edge or side, sometimes I
                      >> can relaunch it. Can any 2-line trainers be re-launched from the LE-
                      >> down position or does this always require a 3rd (or 5th) line?
                      >
                      > I think you would need a fifth line or some other reverse launch
                      > provision.
                      >
                      >

                      A 4 line foil will re-launch easily whichever way up it lands. LE
                      down, then pull on the brake lines and it should fly backwards off the
                      ground. Because it is pretty unstable it will usually flip round, at
                      which point you release the brakes and off she goes. You can encourage
                      the flip by a bit of steering input at the same time as pulling on the
                      brakes. This is one of the major advantages of foils.

                      Iain
                    • John F. Kim
                      First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful! Second, I took my first water lesson
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 21, 2004
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                        First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
                        flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!

                        Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
                        wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
                        body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
                        Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the water
                        (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up and
                        upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the time.
                        Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch it
                        fairly easily each time with the Recon system.

                        Quick summary of conditions:
                        --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
                        --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
                        --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
                        --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
                        --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
                        harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
                        --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
                        --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
                        --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites as
                        wind died down.
                        --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and snowboarding
                        experience but no previous water kiting experience.
                        --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)

                        Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
                        --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds because
                        it could hauled me around in a gust
                        --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
                        swimming towards the kite)
                        --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
                        --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
                        --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
                        --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
                        --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
                        --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like the
                        one time I tried wakeboarding)
                        --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
                        downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
                        --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
                        active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
                        practice)
                        --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for untwisting
                        lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar spinning)
                        --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...

                        As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil kite
                        just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes sense
                        for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy a
                        2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into kiteskiing
                        or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the LEI
                        kite on (or at least near) the water.

                        First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
                        waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
                        the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
                        then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around my
                        legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook, detaching
                        me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite close
                        to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged along
                        slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
                        because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised activating
                        Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
                        where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
                        flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
                        with the kite.

                        In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see if
                        that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the kite,
                        but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because I
                        had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
                        wrapped up kite and called it a day.

                        I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon, but
                        it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the kite
                        to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it crashed
                        on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.

                        All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
                        KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco Bay
                        area.

                        --John Kim



                        --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just one
                        or
                        > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                        >
                        > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on land?
                        > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for me
                        to
                        > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
                        and
                      • Chris Glazier
                        Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good luck and have fun. Chris G. ... water ... and ... time. ... it ... as ... snowboarding ...
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 23, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Nice report John. It sounds like a successful first lesson. Good
                          luck and have fun.
                          Chris G.

                          --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > First, big thanks to Chris, George, Sara, Andre, Iain, and
                          > flkitesurfer for responding to my questions. Very helpful!
                          >
                          > Second, I took my first water lesson yesterday, and while I
                          > wasn't quite able to get the water start down, I did get my upwind
                          > body dragging down and felt pretty good about steering the kite.
                          > Even when I got lost control of the kite, got hauled out of the
                          water
                          > (not very high) and skipped across the water (both right side up
                          and
                          > upside down), I was able to keep the kite flying most of the
                          time.
                          > Crashing it on leading edge about 4 times, was able to re-launch
                          it
                          > fairly easily each time with the Recon system.
                          >
                          > Quick summary of conditions:
                          > --San Francisco Bay, Alameda, 5:30pm PDT
                          > --About one mile NorthWest of Alameda beach with Waverunner support
                          > --Cabrinha Access 9m 4-line LEI kite with 20 or 25m lines
                          > --45 or 48cm Cabrinha bar with PowerLock and Recon system
                          > --4/3 wetsuit, porous gloves, PFD, Pro-Tec WakePro helmet, seat
                          > harness was XL (ProLimit?), which turned out to be too big.
                          > --Wind speed average 15mph, gusts up to 22 mph; chop 6"-18"
                          > --Cabrinha twintip board, 158cm, model unknown, sandal bindings
                          > --Experienced kiters were using 11m and 12m kites, later 14m kites
                          as
                          > wind died down.
                          > --Student is 195 lbs with some surfing, windsurfing and
                          snowboarding
                          > experience but no previous water kiting experience.
                          > --Lesson from www.kitewindsurf.com (good guys, and gals)
                          >
                          > Based on this one water lesson I have concluded...
                          > --I do not want to fly my 9m LEI kite on land in 15mph winds
                          because
                          > it could hauled me around in a gust
                          > --I need to learn to re-launch kite without using Recon system (by
                          > swimming towards the kite)
                          > --Recon emergency depower system great if you are concious
                          > --Waverunner/jetski support very helpful, may increase lesson cost
                          > --Basic kite easier than expected (trainer practice helps)
                          > --Skillful kite flying harder than expected
                          > --Body dragging upwind easier than expected for me
                          > --Waterstarting harder than expected for me (was very much like
                          the
                          > one time I tried wakeboarding)
                          > --Getting hauled out of water by kite quite fun (nothing dangerous
                          > downwind) except when leads to swallowing seawater
                          > --Cabrinha PowerLock great except easy to engage by mistake, takes
                          > active thought to disengage it (surely becomes intuitive with
                          > practice)
                          > --Having leash that allows bar spinning is very nice for
                          untwisting
                          > lines (my own bar leash wrist safety does not allow easy bar
                          spinning)
                          > --I'm really close to being able to waterstart, I think...
                          >
                          > As advised by several people, at this point buying a larger foil
                          kite
                          > just to practice with on land for kitesurfing no longer makes
                          sense
                          > for me. I will still enjoy flying my 1m foil for fun and may buy
                          a
                          > 2m foil kite as a recreational kite, but unless I get into
                          kiteskiing
                          > or kitebuggying or mountain boards, I need to practice with the
                          LEI
                          > kite on (or at least near) the water.
                          >
                          > First hand safety system experience. On my last attempt to
                          > waterstart, I lost control of the kite and dove it through
                          > the power window. As happened several times, I got hauled out of
                          > then along the water, but this time my harness slipped down around
                          my
                          > legs and the chicken loop donkey dick came out of the hook,
                          detaching
                          > me from the kite and sheeting it out to full power. I had kite
                          close
                          > to neutral but was hanging onto the bar only and being dragged
                          along
                          > slowly. I kicked off the harness but didn't want to let go of bar
                          > because then we'd have a runaway kite. Instructor advised
                          activating
                          > Recon safety which depowered kite about 85% and it slowly landed,
                          > where it retained 5 to 15% power depending which way it was
                          > flapping. I slowly wound in the lines then practiced self-rescue
                          > with the kite.
                          >
                          > In retrospect I should have pulled in the sheeting system to see
                          if
                          > that reduced power enough for me to comfortably hang onto the
                          kite,
                          > but even then I could not have reattached the chicken loop because
                          I
                          > had no more harness! Instructor picked up harness and board, we
                          > wrapped up kite and called it a day.
                          >
                          > I tried once to re-launch the crashed kite without using Recon,
                          but
                          > it didn't work. I think I didn't swim hard enough towards the
                          kite
                          > to make it flip over on its back. Actually in a few cases it
                          crashed
                          > on its side and I was able to relaunch it just using the bar.
                          >
                          > All in all a great experience and I certainly would recommend
                          > KiteWindSurf if you are looking for lessons in the San Francisco
                          Bay
                          > area.
                          >
                          > --John Kim
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "John F. Kim" <jcasekim@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Hello KiteSchool... Five questions. Feel free to answer just
                          one
                          > or
                          > > two--don't need to try to answer all 5!
                          > >
                          > > 1) What is the maximum LEI kite size that is safe to fly on
                          land?
                          > > I'd like to do some land practice and it's not always easy for
                          me
                          > to
                          > > get to the beach for practice. I weigh 195 lbs (about 87 kilos)
                          > and
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