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Severe accident at Eckwarden

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  • Rick Iossi
    A summary of the circumstances reported for this sad accident and commentary have been uploaded to to the address listed below. My sincere condolences go out
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 24, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      A summary of the circumstances reported for this sad accident and commentary
      have been uploaded to to the address listed below. My sincere condolences
      go out to the family, friends of this man and German kiteboarders in
      general.

      http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131

      Other articles both current and from the past also appear at this address.
      More content will be added to this location in the future.
      _________________
      FKA, Inc.
      transcribed by: Rick Iossi

      _________________________________________________________________
      All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
      ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
    • Kevin G. Rodrigue
      Wow, Incredible story. Poor Judgement by far. Same here my condolences go out to evryone whom was involved with this trajedy. I live in Florida USA, Juno
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 24, 2004
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        Wow,
        Incredible story. Poor Judgement by far. Same here my condolences go out to evryone whom was involved with this trajedy. I live in Florida USA, Juno Beach. Im intermiediate Kitesurfer, but for Kites 10, 12, 14, 18 meters whats the reccomended wind tolerances for someone who weights 205lbs and 6'2". Thanks all!!!!


        Rick Iossi <flkitesurfer@...> wrote:
        A summary of the circumstances reported for this sad accident and commentary
        have been uploaded to to the address listed below. My sincere condolences
        go out to the family, friends of this man and German kiteboarders in
        general.

        http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131

        Other articles both current and from the past also appear at this address.
        More content will be added to this location in the future.
        _________________
        FKA, Inc.
        transcribed by: Rick Iossi

        _________________________________________________________________
        All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
        ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn



        If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
        http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
        to the most frequently asked questions.

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      • hungvuatnetcomdotca
        My condolences! This is a very sad accident as it can be easily avoided if the kitesurfer had followed at least one of the golden rules of very strong wind
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 24, 2004
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          My condolences!

          This is a very sad accident as it can be easily avoided if the
          kitesurfer had followed at least one of the golden rules of very
          strong wind kitesurfing.

          I have personally kitesurfed in wind almost as strong and as unstable
          as this (when the average weight windsurfers use high 3's and low 4's
          sails - and Cory Roeseller also mentioned to me that he had been out
          in similar very strong wind at the Gorge) but with a much smaller kite
          (Wipika Classic 3.5), shorter lines 15m or 20m and didn't hook in
          until I was in open water.

          I can see someone twice my weight (250 lbs) use a 7m low performance
          LEI in similar wind but for an average 175 lbs (my assumption) to use
          a 12m or even a 8m is way too much.

          Hung.

          --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Iossi" <flkitesurfer@h...>
          wrote:
          > A summary of the circumstances reported for this sad accident and
          commentary
          > have been uploaded to to the address listed below. My sincere
          condolences
          > go out to the family, friends of this man and German kiteboarders in
          > general.
          >
          > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131
          >
          > Other articles both current and from the past also appear at this
          address.
          > More content will be added to this location in the future.
          > _________________
          > FKA, Inc.
          > transcribed by: Rick Iossi
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
          > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
        • Sax, Steve, M.D.
          What a shame. I ve kiteboarded for two years, am 48, and recently switched my quiver from four kites (8, 10, 14, and 18) to 15 and 19 Fuels 2004. I can kite in
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 25, 2004
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            What a shame. I've kiteboarded for two years, am 48, and recently switched
            my quiver from four kites (8, 10, 14, and 18) to 15 and 19 Fuels 2004. I can
            kite in winds from 8-28; over this, its time for me to watch the pros and
            youngsters have fun or windsurf. This sport could explode with the right
            marketing and teaching.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: hungvuatnetcomdotca [mailto:hungvu2000@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 7:01 PM
            To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Severe accident at Eckwarden


            My condolences!

            This is a very sad accident as it can be easily avoided if the
            kitesurfer had followed at least one of the golden rules of very
            strong wind kitesurfing.

            I have personally kitesurfed in wind almost as strong and as unstable
            as this (when the average weight windsurfers use high 3's and low 4's
            sails - and Cory Roeseller also mentioned to me that he had been out
            in similar very strong wind at the Gorge) but with a much smaller kite
            (Wipika Classic 3.5), shorter lines 15m or 20m and didn't hook in
            until I was in open water.

            I can see someone twice my weight (250 lbs) use a 7m low performance
            LEI in similar wind but for an average 175 lbs (my assumption) to use
            a 12m or even a 8m is way too much.

            Hung.

            --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Iossi" <flkitesurfer@h...>
            wrote:
            > A summary of the circumstances reported for this sad accident and
            commentary
            > have been uploaded to to the address listed below. My sincere
            condolences
            > go out to the family, friends of this man and German kiteboarders in
            > general.
            >
            > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131
            <http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131>
            >
            > Other articles both current and from the past also appear at this
            address.
            > More content will be added to this location in the future.
            > _________________
            > FKA, Inc.
            > transcribed by: Rick Iossi
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
            > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
            <http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn>



            If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
            http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm
            <http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm> for the answers
            to the most frequently asked questions.

            To unsubscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            To subscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com




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            This e-mail is the property of The Methodist Hospital and/or its relevant affiliates and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. Thank you.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • George Sarris
            This is very sad in that the accident could have been avoided. Winds 33-50 kts are very extreme, even for experienced windsurfers. The gusts can knock a man
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 25, 2004
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              This is very sad in that the accident could have been
              avoided. Winds 33-50 kts are very extreme, even for
              experienced windsurfers. The gusts can knock a man
              over standing on the beach let alone on a windsurfer
              or hooked up to a kite. Gusty conditions can be a
              formula for disaster if safety precautions are not
              followed.

              Consider my recent experience with not so severe
              conditions below.

              Two weeks ago I went out in conditions where the winds
              were averaging 13 kts with lulls to 9 kts and gusts to
              17 kts max. I checked the weather reports prior to
              going out. I had measured the wind with a digital
              wind meter for at least 5 minutes before deciding
              which kite to rig. I had an assist in launching my
              15.2m kite. The wind was side shore. Being mindful
              of safety I was way out in the water with the kite
              being launched about 3 meters from the shore out in
              the water. As it turned out I launched in a lull
              followed immediately by a gust that could have been
              well over 17 kts. The kite stalled in the lull and
              turned left across the power zone during the gust.
              Instead of bringing the kite to the zenith which I am
              sure would have lofted me, I let the kite go across
              the power zone low to the water to the other side of
              the wind window which was clear water. I was dragged
              at speed approx. 50 meters across the water until the
              kite reached the edge of the window when I was able to
              hook in and depower. It was definitely an adrenaline
              rush. Noteworthy is when I launched I was not hooked
              in. I could have dropped the bar easily but I was in
              no danger of hitting anything, maybe a slow fish. So
              I hung on. Needless to say it was a wake up call for
              me and thankfully I followed safety procedures(I
              always do). I wear a helmut, gloves, vest, booties,
              and carry a hook knife.

              Fly Safely. This is not called an extreme sport for
              nothing.

              Regards,
              Jake

              --- hungvuatnetcomdotca <hungvu2000@...> wrote:
              > My condolences!
              >
              > This is a very sad accident as it can be easily
              > avoided if the
              > kitesurfer had followed at least one of the golden
              > rules of very
              > strong wind kitesurfing.
              >
              > I have personally kitesurfed in wind almost as
              > strong and as unstable
              > as this (when the average weight windsurfers use
              > high 3's and low 4's
              > sails - and Cory Roeseller also mentioned to me that
              > he had been out
              > in similar very strong wind at the Gorge) but with a
              > much smaller kite
              > (Wipika Classic 3.5), shorter lines 15m or 20m and
              > didn't hook in
              > until I was in open water.
              >
              > I can see someone twice my weight (250 lbs) use a 7m
              > low performance
              > LEI in similar wind but for an average 175 lbs (my
              > assumption) to use
              > a 12m or even a 8m is way too much.
              >
              > Hung.
              >
              > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Iossi"
              > <flkitesurfer@h...>
              > wrote:
              > > A summary of the circumstances reported for this
              > sad accident and
              > commentary
              > > have been uploaded to to the address listed below.
              > My sincere
              > condolences
              > > go out to the family, friends of this man and
              > German kiteboarders in
              > > general.
              > >
              > > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131
              > >
              > > Other articles both current and from the past
              > also appear at this
              > address.
              > > More content will be added to this location in the
              > future.
              > > _________________
              > > FKA, Inc.
              > > transcribed by: Rick Iossi
              > >
              > >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops
              > coverage at MSN Sports by
              > > ESPN.
              > http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
              >
              >


              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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            • kennywek@aol.com
              Jake, Thanks for the warning. It helps people appreciate the danger in this sport when that happens in a circumstance where you wouldn t usually expect to have
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 25, 2004
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                Jake,

                Thanks for the warning. It helps people appreciate the danger in this
                sport when that happens in a circumstance where you wouldn't usually expect to
                have a problem.


                Billl Kenny


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jakob Thegerström
                I have the feeling this sport is safer with foil kites. The LEI kites all seam to have the same problem in gusty conditions: In the wind drop they fall back
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 26, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I have the feeling this sport is safer with foil
                  kites. The LEI kites all seam to have the same problem
                  in gusty conditions: In the wind drop they fall back
                  right in the power zone. Even if you're an experienced
                  kiter you can't do much about it. Then the wind picks
                  up you got hundred of kilograms in your lines. This
                  has happened to me very often with my 2001 and 2002
                  LEI kites.
                  How does the 2004 LEI kites handle gusty winds? Are
                  these kites better than the older 2003-2002... LEI
                  kites?!
                  I recently tested the flysurfer voodoo foil kite in
                  very gusty conditions 4-24knots, the wind direction
                  changed by 20-45 degrees. The kite was unaffected by
                  these gusty winds, it never dropped and always stayed
                  where I wanted it to stay in the wind window... Maybe
                  every kiter should have a foil for gusty winds? My
                  experience is that LEI kites do not work in these
                  winds...

                  /J


                  --- kennywek@... skrev:
                  ---------------------------------
                  Jake,

                  Thanks for the warning. It helps people appreciate
                  the danger in this
                  sport when that happens in a circumstance where you
                  wouldn't usually expect to
                  have a problem.


                  Billl Kenny


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                  http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the
                  answers
                  to the most frequently asked questions.

                  To unsubscribe, please send an email to
                  ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  To subscribe, please send an email to
                  ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com




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                  Höstrusk och grå moln - köp en resa till solen på Yahoo! Resor på adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
                • Sax, Steve, M.D.
                  hung: what are the golden rules of very strong wind kitesurfing ?. ... From: George Sarris [mailto:jakefarley2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 26, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    hung: what are the "golden rules of very strong wind kitesurfing"?.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: George Sarris [mailto:jakefarley2000@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:52 PM
                    To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com; FKSA
                    Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Severe accident at Eckwarden


                    This is very sad in that the accident could have been
                    avoided. Winds 33-50 kts are very extreme, even for
                    experienced windsurfers. The gusts can knock a man
                    over standing on the beach let alone on a windsurfer
                    or hooked up to a kite. Gusty conditions can be a
                    formula for disaster if safety precautions are not
                    followed.

                    Consider my recent experience with not so severe
                    conditions below.

                    Two weeks ago I went out in conditions where the winds
                    were averaging 13 kts with lulls to 9 kts and gusts to
                    17 kts max. I checked the weather reports prior to
                    going out. I had measured the wind with a digital
                    wind meter for at least 5 minutes before deciding
                    which kite to rig. I had an assist in launching my
                    15.2m kite. The wind was side shore. Being mindful
                    of safety I was way out in the water with the kite
                    being launched about 3 meters from the shore out in
                    the water. As it turned out I launched in a lull
                    followed immediately by a gust that could have been
                    well over 17 kts. The kite stalled in the lull and
                    turned left across the power zone during the gust.
                    Instead of bringing the kite to the zenith which I am
                    sure would have lofted me, I let the kite go across
                    the power zone low to the water to the other side of
                    the wind window which was clear water. I was dragged
                    at speed approx. 50 meters across the water until the
                    kite reached the edge of the window when I was able to
                    hook in and depower. It was definitely an adrenaline
                    rush. Noteworthy is when I launched I was not hooked
                    in. I could have dropped the bar easily but I was in
                    no danger of hitting anything, maybe a slow fish. So
                    I hung on. Needless to say it was a wake up call for
                    me and thankfully I followed safety procedures(I
                    always do). I wear a helmut, gloves, vest, booties,
                    and carry a hook knife.

                    Fly Safely. This is not called an extreme sport for
                    nothing.

                    Regards,
                    Jake

                    --- hungvuatnetcomdotca <hungvu2000@...> wrote:
                    > My condolences!
                    >
                    > This is a very sad accident as it can be easily
                    > avoided if the
                    > kitesurfer had followed at least one of the golden
                    > rules of very
                    > strong wind kitesurfing.
                    >
                    > I have personally kitesurfed in wind almost as
                    > strong and as unstable
                    > as this (when the average weight windsurfers use
                    > high 3's and low 4's
                    > sails - and Cory Roeseller also mentioned to me that
                    > he had been out
                    > in similar very strong wind at the Gorge) but with a
                    > much smaller kite
                    > (Wipika Classic 3.5), shorter lines 15m or 20m and
                    > didn't hook in
                    > until I was in open water.
                    >
                    > I can see someone twice my weight (250 lbs) use a 7m
                    > low performance
                    > LEI in similar wind but for an average 175 lbs (my
                    > assumption) to use
                    > a 12m or even a 8m is way too much.
                    >
                    > Hung.
                    >
                    > --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Iossi"
                    > <flkitesurfer@h...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > A summary of the circumstances reported for this
                    > sad accident and
                    > commentary
                    > > have been uploaded to to the address listed below.
                    > My sincere
                    > condolences
                    > > go out to the family, friends of this man and
                    > German kiteboarders in
                    > > general.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131
                    <http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131>
                    > >
                    > > Other articles both current and from the past
                    > also appear at this
                    > address.
                    > > More content will be added to this location in the
                    > future.
                    > > _________________
                    > > FKA, Inc.
                    > > transcribed by: Rick Iossi
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    _________________________________________________________________
                    > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops
                    > coverage at MSN Sports by
                    > > ESPN.
                    > http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                    <http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn>
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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                    If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
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                    -----------------------------------------
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    ****CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE****
                    This e-mail is the property of The Methodist Hospital and/or its relevant affiliates and may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. Thank you.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kite Power (Sydney)
                    I have 12 years expereince with power kiting, I have travelled more than 15,00klms in my buggy, and I have kitesurfed for 6 years, my experience is that in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 26, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have 12 years expereince with power kiting, I have travelled more than 15,00klms in my buggy, and I have kitesurfed for 6 years, my experience is that in extremely gusty winds, you should stay home.
                      Conditions like you describe are dangerous to kite in, and all foils I have ever flown will misbehave in winds like that, and inflatos will too.
                      The newer 2004 inflatos do handle a lot better than pre 2002 kites, as do foils.
                      The number one reason for being lofted in these conditions is keeping the kite overhead, keep the kite below 11 o'clock, as we say keep it low and go!
                      Cya and
                      Goodwinds
                      Steve McCormack
                      www.kitepower.com.au

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: jakob Thegerström
                      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Severe accident at Eckwarden


                      I have the feeling this sport is safer with foil
                      kites. The LEI kites all seam to have the same problem
                      in gusty conditions: In the wind drop they fall back
                      right in the power zone. Even if you're an experienced
                      kiter you can't do much about it. Then the wind picks
                      up you got hundred of kilograms in your lines. This
                      has happened to me very often with my 2001 and 2002
                      LEI kites.
                      How does the 2004 LEI kites handle gusty winds? Are
                      these kites better than the older 2003-2002... LEI
                      kites?!
                      I recently tested the flysurfer voodoo foil kite in
                      very gusty conditions 4-24knots, the wind direction
                      changed by 20-45 degrees. The kite was unaffected by
                      these gusty winds, it never dropped and always stayed
                      where I wanted it to stay in the wind window... Maybe
                      every kiter should have a foil for gusty winds? My
                      experience is that LEI kites do not work in these
                      winds...

                      /J


                      --- kennywek@... skrev:
                      ---------------------------------
                      Jake,

                      Thanks for the warning. It helps people appreciate
                      the danger in this
                      sport when that happens in a circumstance where you
                      wouldn't usually expect to
                      have a problem.


                      Billl Kenny


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the
                      answers
                      to the most frequently asked questions.

                      To unsubscribe, please send an email to
                      ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      To subscribe, please send an email to
                      ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com




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                      Höstrusk och grå moln - köp en resa till solen på Yahoo! Resor på adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html


                      If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                      to the most frequently asked questions.

                      To unsubscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      To subscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com




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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                      ... Some of them: 1- Use kite size appropriated for the condition, when in doubt, try you smallest kite first 2- Use shorter line to restrict the power zone
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com, "Sax, Steve, M.D." <ssax@t...> wrote:
                        > hung: what are the "golden rules of very strong wind kitesurfing"?.
                        >

                        Some of them:

                        1- Use kite size appropriated for the condition, when in doubt, try
                        you smallest kite first
                        2- Use shorter line to restrict the power zone and the time the kite
                        stay in the power zone. For kitesurfing start from 15m and go up as
                        appropriated.
                        3- Launch and land unhooked or better yet, launch and land unhooked in
                        shallow water
                        4- Ride unhooked when you are near hard objects.
                        5- Wear a helmet
                        ...

                        Hung.
                      • jakob Thegerström
                        Steve, I completely agree with you. One should avoid gusty winds. However where I live the winds are nearly always more or less gusty :( ... The situation I m
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 29, 2004
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                          Steve, I completely agree with you. One should avoid
                          gusty winds. However where I live the winds are nearly
                          always more or less gusty :( ... The situation I'm
                          avoiding is to go out overpower + gusty winds.
                          I guess that most new 2004 kites got better stability
                          and depower. The fact that the depower range increases
                          is probably both good and bad. With a hudge depower
                          you feel very secure when kiting in strong winds and
                          that could lead to mistakes / bad judgments.

                          /Jakob



                          --- "Kite Power (Sydney)" <sydney@...>
                          skrev:
                          ---------------------------------
                          I have 12 years expereince with power kiting, I have
                          travelled more than 15,00klms in my buggy, and I have
                          kitesurfed for 6 years, my experience is that in
                          extremely gusty winds, you should stay home.
                          Conditions like you describe are dangerous to kite in,
                          and all foils I have ever flown will misbehave in
                          winds like that, and inflatos will too.
                          The newer 2004 inflatos do handle a lot better than
                          pre 2002 kites, as do foils.
                          The number one reason for being lofted in these
                          conditions is keeping the kite overhead, keep the kite
                          below 11 o'clock, as we say keep it low and go!
                          Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          www.kitepower.com.au

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jakob Thegerström
                          To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 7:01 PM
                          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Severe accident at
                          Eckwarden


                          I have the feeling this sport is safer with foil
                          kites. The LEI kites all seam to have the same
                          problem
                          in gusty conditions: In the wind drop they fall back
                          right in the power zone. Even if you're an
                          experienced
                          kiter you can't do much about it. Then the wind
                          picks
                          up you got hundred of kilograms in your lines. This
                          has happened to me very often with my 2001 and 2002
                          LEI kites.
                          How does the 2004 LEI kites handle gusty winds? Are
                          these kites better than the older 2003-2002... LEI
                          kites?!
                          I recently tested the flysurfer voodoo foil kite in
                          very gusty conditions 4-24knots, the wind direction
                          changed by 20-45 degrees. The kite was unaffected by
                          these gusty winds, it never dropped and always
                          stayed
                          where I wanted it to stay in the wind window...
                          Maybe
                          every kiter should have a foil for gusty winds? My
                          experience is that LEI kites do not work in these
                          winds...

                          /J


                          --- kennywek@... skrev:
                          ---------------------------------
                          Jake,

                          Thanks for the warning. It helps people
                          appreciate
                          the danger in this
                          sport when that happens in a circumstance where you
                          wouldn't usually expect to
                          have a problem.


                          Billl Kenny


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