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KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!

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  • Kitepower
    G day Rick The almost complete silence here on this topic leads me to think that most riders are not using kite leashes. It is very obvious to me when I visit
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 7, 2002
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      G'day Rick
      The almost complete silence here on this topic leads me to think that most
      riders are not using kite leashes.
      It is very obvious to me when I visit places, that most here in Oz do not.
      Kiting is very close to being banned or severely restricted in Melbourne,
      many parts of Qld, WA, Australia, etc, and the number one reason is runaway
      kites, (a close 2nd, is dangerous, or inconsiderate behaviour on beaches,
      jumping close to other water users), dozens have landed on roads in
      Melbourne, incredibly no serious accidents have been caused - YET!!

      Yet, most of the riders down there continue to remove kite leashes and or
      ride without one. These same people will complain about begginners in their
      area, and also stand around and watch as someone struggles to land or launch
      a kite unassisted, then they will come screaming to AKSA why are we banned!?

      All teachers should follow IKO teaching standards, and thoroughly cover
      leash use and the reasons for them, including at least a dozen or more
      deployments of the leash in all begginer lessons. No-one should be teaching
      if they cannot demonstrate to anyone how to set-up 4 line spinning leashes,
      on any kite.

      Join your local association, if you see someone needs a hand or is riding
      leashless in populated areas, go and have a friendly chat, if that does not
      work get their car rego and report them to AKSA and the Police.

      Don't turn a blind eye to IRRESPONSIBLE behaviour anymore, handle pass
      wankers and grab leash users are FOOLS, if they do/use these things in
      populated areas, they will lead to your access being DENIED.

      If you want a future for this sport in your area, make it happen by standing
      up to SELFISH/IGNORANT behaviour.

      Insurance will be denied to anyone involved in an accident who was not using
      a kite leash, in Australia.

      Steve McCormack
      Secretary
      Australian Kite Surfing Association
      http://www.aksa.com.au
      info@...


      > Message: 9
      > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:41:42 -0400
      > From: "Rick Iossi" <flkitesurfer@...>
      > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
      >
      > Steve,
      >
      > You make many good points. Many in the kiteboarding industry and a lot of
      > the participants have often approached this sport too casually for the
      > common good. This sport has more in common with paragliding than
      > windsurfing or wakeboarding. The sudden power, weather sensitivity and
      > potential hazard to bystanders are far more acute in kiteboarding than in
      > most other water sports that come to mind. There has been a long tendency
      > to trivialize these risks because we can get away with it, much of the
      time.
      >
      > Of course if safety systems were both more reliable and fool proof the
      > potential occasional high level of hazard might be reduced. Then again,
      you
      > have to carry or wear the safety gear to have any hope of it doing you
      some
      > good. To this point it hasn't been fashionable to stoop to using many
      basic
      > pieces of safety gear. I sense a growing trend away from that indifferent
      > mode to personal safety and that of others in many riders, it is an
      > excellent development.
      >
      > In the meantime though, it is going to take adequate training, good
      judgment
      > and using available safety gear to avoid more needless accidents and
      > incidents. As our numbers continue to grow don't expect society to
      continue
      > to be indifferent to mounting accidents and incidents. Riding
      restrictions
      > will also likely grow and become more common worldwide.
      >
      > Many of these points are of course obvious to a lot of people both in the
      > industry and among riders. The level of indifference and denial that
      > anything really bad will occur, is substantial however. It would be great
      > to make reasonable, responsible decisions in advance of being forced into
      > them. Start small, get a trend going and who knows where it will end?
      > Using a proper leash (not a grab leash), is a good start. For AKA members
      > failure to do so may well result in denial of insurance coverage if an
      > accident occurs that might have been avoided by using a leash.
      >
      > Rick Iossi
      >
      > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
      > >The silence is deafening!
      > >
      > >There was an incredible reaction to the kite sizing debate on this
      >
      > group,
      > >some even said that was an important safety issue!!
      > >Yet this matter is way more important, does anyone care about being
      >
      > able to
      > >kite close to where you live?
      > >
      > >This is a matter that can unite all kiteboarders and make us all
      >
      > appear to
      > >be responsible to the authorities that are thinking of or have
      >
      > banned the
      > >sport.
      > >
      > >Steve McCormack
      > >Secretary
      > >Australian Kite Surfing Association
      > >http://www.aksa.com.au
      > >info@a...
    • Kitepower
      Hooly Dooly I got some attention!! :-)) Firstly, to all those who have taken this thread as an opportunity to attack me personally, get a life!! Its pathetic
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 8, 2002
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        Hooly Dooly I got some attention!! :-))

        Firstly, to all those who have taken this thread as an opportunity to attack
        me personally, get a life!!
        Its pathetic you use a thread like this to get personal, go and abuse
        yourselves (read - have a non gender specific wank) because that is really
        what you are doing here anyway!

        Everyone who did attack should re-read what I actually wrote, from the very
        beggining, again, very carefully. If you interpret what I say in any way
        other than as a community minded message about safety and the future of this
        sport that is your choice, not mine.

        I don't think I let anyone or group off the hook, and pics of riders using
        leashes will only appear in magazines/videos if we all send them (magazines,
        pro riders and manufacturers) a very clear united message. I am using the
        good leverage afforded by the 1500 approx members of this group to start the
        ball rolling.

        To the insurance experts, guess what, you are probably not covered if you
        are acting irresponsibly anyway, what's the term, "duty of care", "due
        diligence"? It is private insurance, it is not like government
        backed/legislated no fault motor vehicle third part insurance! If you do
        really stupid things even while wearing a kite leash, you may find your are
        not fully or covered at all. Any major claim will go to court, a jury or
        judge will apportion liability, based on real evidence.
        The AKA insurance in America, has clauses that deny cover to people doing
        certain activities, this is what gave me the idea.
        I am not talking about "messing" with the insurance, but I do not see why we
        (AKSA committee) should spend an incredible amount of time trying to get
        insurance on your behalf, at a reasonable cost, to have it lost in one
        incident, because a selfish fool, wanted to look like a pro, or do handle
        passes, jump on land or close to crowds, or thinks they are so good that it
        is dangerous for them to wear a kite leash, or some other equally foolish
        and selfish, nonsense, excuse.

        I am never always right, and will always willingly and openly admit when I
        am not. I will always be learning to be a better person, parent,
        businessperson, kiteflyer, and spokesperson for AKSA, etc, etc. Being
        personally responsible involves a lifetime of learning in my experience, my
        own ego is the only thing that trips me up, learning to be humble is
        something I am also very passionate about.
        I challenge anyone, including the gutless, anonymous "looger54" fool, to
        show one case of where I have abused or misused my position as a member or
        committee person of AKSA!

        Silke's death was most likely caused by not having an emergency release on
        her trim loop, the other kite that tangled in hers may have been prevented
        from doing so if the rider of that kite was wearing a kite leash.

        It is true that, I sold John Mulligan his first kite, a Peter Lynn
        waterfoil. I beleive I did talk to him about safety, but I doubt there was
        any leash involved, it was approx 3 years ago. There was no personal attack
        on him, in my reply to his, if you read one into it, that is your problem.
        John has falsely accused me of being an anonymous poster on here several
        times, amongst other things, and I have little time for people who just want
        to use this group to attack me. I also disregard the opinions of people who
        post anonymously to attack others, but I do listen to everyones opinion, as
        everyone should. That does not mean I have to agree with anyones opinion, or
        that if I do not, that their opinion is not valid. Whatever you truly
        beleive, is true for you, but it is not necessarily so for anyone else!

        Lack of personal assets and "stupidity" are not recognised by the
        lawyers/courts as excuses.

        It is true I sponsor John Messenger, for fins, NSI gear, and assist with his
        Underground boards, in parntership with Underground. Naish Australia sponsor
        him for kites.
        However neither of us are responsible for John's behaviour, only John is,
        but if he starts to act in a way that I do not agree with I will retract my
        sposnsorship, as would Naish Australia, if they felt the same.
        John has been sent copies of all these e-mails, I do not except him from
        this rule if he is riding in built up areas, same goes for everyone else I
        sponsor too.
        Something that John was part of a few days ago(a kite sale), also prompted
        me to start this thread, I witnessed him handing over an 18M X2, and watched
        as the new owner chucked the kite leash in a bag with all the foam bits off
        the kite, to be discarded.!!
        I stopped the young owner and told him that the new Naish leash can be very
        simply made into a spinning leash system, and that he should use it, this
        was right in front of John, in the shop he works in!

        Manufacturers do not always have full control of riders anyway, as Martin
        Vari a Cabrinha sponsored rider (and there are other examples), has
        demonstrated by riding Cabrinha stickered Underground manufactured boards!

        There would be no list of kite brands to be avoided/boycotted or recommended
        on the AKSA website unless that is what the members wanted.
        I said that and other provocative things to get some real contributuions to
        this thread, sorry if it got anyones blood pressure up.

        I think a warning and even specific clauses that deny cover for
        irresponsible behaviour, beach/land jumping, kiting while drunk or under the
        influence of drugs, etc, will have to put up on the site though.
        The Bondi Beach insurance incident is undergoing an appeal, and I am told
        the NSW and Australian governements are looking at ways to make insurance
        less costly and to force people to begin to take resposibility for their own
        actions.

        And lastly, not everyone or everything in life is driven by money, but if
        that is what drives you, then it is true, for you! :-))

        I get these posts in digests now, so I have attempted to answer all in one
        reply, have fun, wear a kite leash!

        Cya and
        Goodwinds
        Steve McCormack
        http://www.kitepower.com.au

        and
        Secretary
        Australian Kite Surfing Association
        http://www.aksa.com.au
        info@...




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
        To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:23 PM
        Subject: [ksurf] Digest Number 2169


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        ------------------------------------------------------------------------

        There are 25 messages in this issue.

        Topics in this digest:

        1. Re: What line to leash?
        From: "arcsrule" <knowneed2@...>
        2. Re: X2 Performance - for ronny
        From: "abc123kite" <esku@...>
        3. North Toro 16m, wind range/performance
        From: "macca_12002" <guy.mcclements@...>
        4. KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        5. Luciano Gonzales showing how to tack (up-wind turn)
        From: "Eric Hertsens" <eric@...>
        6. KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        7. Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "stuvagas" <kitesurf@...>
        8. waterstart question
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        9. Re: waterstart question
        From: "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@...>
        10. What line to leash?
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        11. Re: North Toro 16m, wind range/performance
        From: "Dwight & Jacky" <fishersfort@...>
        12. don'r read- test
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        13. Congrads to our local cabarete riders
        From: "Eric Hertsens" <eric@...>
        14. 2003 Cabrinha/Gasstra Equipment
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        15. Re: KITE LEASES are your RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "looger542000" <LooGer54@...>
        16. Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "looger542000" <LooGer54@...>
        17. Re: What line to leash?
        From: "hernanhome" <hernanhome@...>
        18. Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "throb_list" <captain1@...>
        19. Re: 2003 Cabrinha/Gasstra Equipment
        From: "callum_downie" <callum_downie@...>
        20. Re: 2003 Cabrinha/Gaastra Equipment
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        21. Re: Re: Hole in bladder
        From: "Badcoconut" <badcoconut@...>
        22. Is annyone going to the megaevent in skanor falsterbo SWEDEN?
        From: <perlerup@...>
        23. Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        24. Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!
        From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        25. strong wind kite
        From: "memueropormix2" <memueropormix2@...>


        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 1
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:09:05 -0000
        From: "arcsrule" <knowneed2@...>
        Subject: Re: What line to leash?

        I would always go with the fron line. Back lines steer the kite and
        leashing to a back will make it spin and spinning will generate
        power. AS for lines breaking, use Q Power and check the larksheads
        regularly for wear. When they waear, clip off 3 inches and keep
        using. Check out the double ring/no leader leashes in Mel's mods.
        Can't be beat!
        --- In kitesurf@y..., "hernanhome" <hernanhome@i...> wrote:
        > What is safer, to leash the front or the back line?
        >
        > I think back line leashes are safer.
        > 1- less tangles
        > 2- Front lines have a BIG problem: they break more than back
        > lines since they (usually) are much more loaded than back lines,
        > so 50/50 that you get a uncontrolable leashless kite.
        > If you break a back line you still have some control to crash the
        > kite.
        >
        > Still searching...
        >
        > Hernan



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 2
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:59:37 -0000
        From: "abc123kite" <esku@...>
        Subject: Re: X2 Performance - for ronny

        Ronny
        How do you compaire it to the Wakeboard? Do you you think it's as
        good as a Wake in strong days?
        By the way I had the same problem with the 5'5 when I got it first, I
        was sure that I made a mistake for buying that board. Now I know it's
        the best.
        Cya Eyal





        --- In kitesurf@y..., "ronny4562000" <basso@o...> wrote:
        > I'm starting to love the board, its super grippy, and rides well
        > backwards.
        > I ve tried the 5'5" only once and coming directly from using
        > wakeboard for over a year. That was not a good experience.
        > And the first times on the 4*1" the board felt twichy and nervous.
        > Because it doesn't slide sideways like a wakeboard, and the
        > footstraps felt strange. but now i'm happy.
        > I can definetly recommend it.
        > Compaired to the 5'5" it's much more manouverable.
        >
        > Ronny Basso
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "abc123kite" <esku@e...> wrote:
        > > Hi Ronny
        > > What can you say about the 4'11 Mutant
        > > I have the 5'5 and this board is one of the best board I ever
        ride
        > > (for lighter winds) and I have the Hazmat wakeboard for stronger
        > days
        > > I think about changing from the Hazmat to the 4'11 Mutant
        > > I can ride my 5'5 from 8 knots (MastAir 12) to 30 knots.
        > > Thanks Eyal
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ronny4562000" <basso@o...> wrote:
        > > > i havent tested it, i rig the 20 instead.
        > > > but i would say approx. the same as an arx 15.5
        > > > the kite is a faster, so for sinusing it will need less wind
        > > > but for parking the kite, about the same
        > > > i have a mutant 4'11" and my low limit is about 9-10 knots.
        > > >
        > > > ronny basso
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "vcrombecq" <vcrombecq@y...> wrote:
        > > > > Whats your low end wind level with the 16? (size of your
        board)
        > > > > Greetz
        > > > > Dimi
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "ronny4562000" <basso@o...> wrote:
        > > > > > i have the 16 and the 20 and its great, i have tried the
        > > wipikas
        > > > > and
        > > > > > they dont compare at all. thats my view.
        > > > > > even the 20 jumps great and turns really fast like an arx
        > > > 11.5/13.5
        > > > > > and relaunch is good if you dont pump it too hard.
        > > > > > i was out with the 20 in about 15-16 knots in the gusts and
        > it
        > > > was
        > > > > no
        > > > > > problem. my weight is 85 kg. these kites performs really
        > great.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ronny basso
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "timfriedel" <timfriedel@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > Anyone tried the Naish X2 in 16 , 18 , 20 metre sizes?
        > > > > > > How's the light wind performance, windrange for under
        80kg
        > > > > riders?
        > > > > > > jumping performance? Compare to Wipi AB 11.8 - 16.4?



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 3
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:45:40 -0000
        From: "macca_12002" <guy.mcclements@...>
        Subject: North Toro 16m, wind range/performance

        Hi
        Can any one help me out with the wind range of the Toro 16m @85kg on
        a 160 TT.

        What do these kites jump like in comparison to skoops/airblasts. I
        like the Idea of the easy relaunch of the Toros with out compromising
        to much performance. I have a 10.5 Skoop which is an excellent kite
        with great wind range but is tricky to relaunch when its nose down.

        Thanks in advance. Cheers Guy.



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 4
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:56:26 +1000
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        Subject: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        G'day John

        Same wavelength? I don't think so, I usually ignore your posts now,
        especially since you have demonstrated your contempt for me, many times on
        this group.
        Your message is foolish and contradictory, as if I or anyone could have any
        control over what someone does, after they leave our stores or schools!
        Are you trying to say that Slingshot (inset any brand of inflato/foil),
        should be held accountable for everything that any of the riders sponsored
        by their company do?
        If you are, and it sounds like it, then you are apparently attempting to
        cause trouble again IMO, in a pathetic attempt to defend the maker of your
        favourite brand of kite, by trying to make sure they are not alone at the
        top of the podium for 1st place in irresponsible kite selling!

        Buyers boycotting a manufacturer is one way of getting those companies
        attention, and there are many other ways too, including being named on
        club/association websites as brands to avoid!!

        Did your favourite brand of kite come with an adequate leash or instructions
        John?

        Maybe you could take some personal responsibility and just be quiet, while
        those of us who really care about the future of this sport, actually do
        something about ensuring there is a future for you and everyone to enjoy.
        If you do not promote the solution (which is kite leashes) YOU (anyone) are
        part of the problem!

        Steve McCormack
        Secretary
        Australian Kite Surfing Association
        http://www.aksa.com.au
        info@...

        > Message: 7
        > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:29:17 -0000
        > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your RESPONSIBILITY!!
        >
        > Hi Steve,
        >
        > I think your title for this thread "KITE LEAS(H)ES are your
        > RESPONSIBILITY!!" is pretty excellent. I agree with you. I think it
        > is our responsibility not to recklessly endanger innocent people
        > or their property.
        >
        > I think you could be a bit more fair in your proposal to boycott
        > these manufacturers, however. Do you think a manufacturer that
        > makes a good leash but allows its sponsored riders to ride
        > leashless should be spared the shame and negative exposure?
        > How about a manufacturer whose ads show leashless riding?
        > Didn't you suggest that they have been irresponsible in
        > promoting kiteboarding without leashes? Do you plan to follow
        > through with your tough stance and immediately quit selling
        > products from manufacturers who allow their sponsored riders
        > to set a dangerous example, or display ads which show
        > leashless riding? I'm not suggesting that you do so, but I think it
        > would be an action more consistent with your words.
        >
        > I agree that it is our (the riders) responsibility to protect others
        > from the harm which we might introduce. It would be nice for
        > manufacturers to help with this and produce/make available
        > reliable safety products, and to encourage their use by example
        > (riders, ads, etc.). I think others in the business (teaching, sales,
        > promotion, etc.) should promote/encourage safe practices or at
        > least discourage irresponsibility in whatever way they can. But I
        > find it a bit strange to boycott manufacturers in the way you've
        > suggested, sparing many who have consistently encouraged
        > (by example) leashless riding as it seems contradictory to what
        > you have expressed as such a strong belief.
        >
        > Again, my disagreement with you is small. I completely agree
        > with you that we, the riders, have the ultimate responsibility with
        > regard to leashes/runaway kites.
        >
        > John
        > Message: 8
        > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:34:13 -0000
        > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > > The silence is deafening!
        >
        > Oh well, I guess we'll start making a little noise. I was writing my
        > resonse to your recent post, and by the time mine was posted,
        > yours is back all fresh and new. Nice one Steve.
        >
        > Hmmm,
        >
        > Could it be that Mr McC and Mr Loco are thinking on the same
        > wavelength again? ;-)))
        >
        > John




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 5
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:09:40 -0400
        From: "Eric Hertsens" <eric@...>
        Subject: Luciano Gonzales showing how to tack (up-wind turn)

        Luciano showing how to tack (up-wind turn)

        http://216.92.244.20/pictures/ofTheMonth/july2002/LucianoTack/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 6
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:24:57 +1000
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        Subject: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!

        G'day Rick
        The almost complete silence here on this topic leads me to think that most
        riders are not using kite leashes.
        It is very obvious to me when I visit places, that most here in Oz do not.
        Kiting is very close to being banned or severely restricted in Melbourne,
        many parts of Qld, WA, Australia, etc, and the number one reason is runaway
        kites, (a close 2nd, is dangerous, or inconsiderate behaviour on beaches,
        jumping close to other water users), dozens have landed on roads in
        Melbourne, incredibly no serious accidents have been caused - YET!!

        Yet, most of the riders down there continue to remove kite leashes and or
        ride without one. These same people will complain about begginners in their
        area, and also stand around and watch as someone struggles to land or launch
        a kite unassisted, then they will come screaming to AKSA why are we banned!?

        All teachers should follow IKO teaching standards, and thoroughly cover
        leash use and the reasons for them, including at least a dozen or more
        deployments of the leash in all begginer lessons. No-one should be teaching
        if they cannot demonstrate to anyone how to set-up 4 line spinning leashes,
        on any kite.

        Join your local association, if you see someone needs a hand or is riding
        leashless in populated areas, go and have a friendly chat, if that does not
        work get their car rego and report them to AKSA and the Police.

        Don't turn a blind eye to IRRESPONSIBLE behaviour anymore, handle pass
        wankers and grab leash users are FOOLS, if they do/use these things in
        populated areas, they will lead to your access being DENIED.

        If you want a future for this sport in your area, make it happen by standing
        up to SELFISH/IGNORANT behaviour.

        Insurance will be denied to anyone involved in an accident who was not using
        a kite leash, in Australia.

        Steve McCormack
        Secretary
        Australian Kite Surfing Association
        http://www.aksa.com.au
        info@...


        > Message: 9
        > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:41:42 -0400
        > From: "Rick Iossi" <flkitesurfer@...>
        > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
        >
        > Steve,
        >
        > You make many good points. Many in the kiteboarding industry and a lot of
        > the participants have often approached this sport too casually for the
        > common good. This sport has more in common with paragliding than
        > windsurfing or wakeboarding. The sudden power, weather sensitivity and
        > potential hazard to bystanders are far more acute in kiteboarding than in
        > most other water sports that come to mind. There has been a long tendency
        > to trivialize these risks because we can get away with it, much of the
        time.
        >
        > Of course if safety systems were both more reliable and fool proof the
        > potential occasional high level of hazard might be reduced. Then again,
        you
        > have to carry or wear the safety gear to have any hope of it doing you
        some
        > good. To this point it hasn't been fashionable to stoop to using many
        basic
        > pieces of safety gear. I sense a growing trend away from that indifferent
        > mode to personal safety and that of others in many riders, it is an
        > excellent development.
        >
        > In the meantime though, it is going to take adequate training, good
        judgment
        > and using available safety gear to avoid more needless accidents and
        > incidents. As our numbers continue to grow don't expect society to
        continue
        > to be indifferent to mounting accidents and incidents. Riding
        restrictions
        > will also likely grow and become more common worldwide.
        >
        > Many of these points are of course obvious to a lot of people both in the
        > industry and among riders. The level of indifference and denial that
        > anything really bad will occur, is substantial however. It would be great
        > to make reasonable, responsible decisions in advance of being forced into
        > them. Start small, get a trend going and who knows where it will end?
        > Using a proper leash (not a grab leash), is a good start. For AKA members
        > failure to do so may well result in denial of insurance coverage if an
        > accident occurs that might have been avoided by using a leash.
        >
        > Rick Iossi
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > >The silence is deafening!
        > >
        > >There was an incredible reaction to the kite sizing debate on this
        >
        > group,
        > >some even said that was an important safety issue!!
        > >Yet this matter is way more important, does anyone care about being
        >
        > able to
        > >kite close to where you live?
        > >
        > >This is a matter that can unite all kiteboarders and make us all
        >
        > appear to
        > >be responsible to the authorities that are thinking of or have
        >
        > banned the
        > >sport.
        > >
        > >Steve McCormack
        > >Secretary
        > >Australian Kite Surfing Association
        > >http://www.aksa.com.au
        > >info@a...




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 7
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 22:45:38 -0000
        From: "stuvagas" <kitesurf@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        Did you run out of Pills again Steve chill out
        Especially don't make unprovoked PERSONAL ATTACKS on people who agree
        with you.

        For the record I think you're right and all riders should wear a
        leash. Also, all RETAILERS should sell kites with working leash
        systems.

        Your argument about sponsored riders just doesn't hold water
        sponsored riders are in fact responsible for upholding the image of
        the Brand and if they don't the brand can easily drop them.

        For instance in Kayaking when a british company unveiled a new
        radical Kayak they banned their team paddlers from having photos
        taken with the new boat on dangerous rivers, as they felt it was
        unsafe and was designed for the 'park and play' market only.

        I do hope that your new found evangelism is for real Steve and not a
        thinly veiled attempt to slander any one particular brand, esp if it
        now does sell completely rigged kites.

        I also think it is unnecessary to change your insurance cover as I'm
        sure the victims of a kite accident without a leash would prefer to
        actually get some money back instead of making a poor (and maybe
        stupid) Kitesurfer bankrupt.

        Stu

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > G'day John
        >
        > Same wavelength? I don't think so, I usually ignore your posts
        now,
        > especially since you have demonstrated your contempt for me, many
        times on
        > this group.
        > Your message is foolish and contradictory, as if I or anyone could
        have any
        > control over what someone does, after they leave our stores or
        schools!
        > Are you trying to say that Slingshot (inset any brand of
        inflato/foil),
        > should be held accountable for everything that any of the riders
        sponsored
        > by their company do?
        > If you are, and it sounds like it, then you are apparently
        attempting to
        > cause trouble again IMO, in a pathetic attempt to defend the maker
        of your
        > favourite brand of kite, by trying to make sure they are not alone
        at the
        > top of the podium for 1st place in irresponsible kite selling!
        >
        > Buyers boycotting a manufacturer is one way of getting those
        companies
        > attention, and there are many other ways too, including being named
        on
        > club/association websites as brands to avoid!!
        >
        > Did your favourite brand of kite come with an adequate leash or
        instructions
        > John?
        >
        > Maybe you could take some personal responsibility and just be
        quiet, while
        > those of us who really care about the future of this sport,
        actually do
        > something about ensuring there is a future for you and everyone to
        enjoy.
        > If you do not promote the solution (which is kite leashes) YOU
        (anyone) are
        > part of the problem!
        >
        > Steve McCormack
        > Secretary
        > Australian Kite Surfing Association
        > http://www.aksa.com.au
        > info@a...
        >
        > > Message: 7
        > > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:29:17 -0000
        > > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@y...>
        > > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your RESPONSIBILITY!!
        > >
        > > Hi Steve,
        > >
        > > I think your title for this thread "KITE LEAS(H)ES are your
        > > RESPONSIBILITY!!" is pretty excellent. I agree with you. I think
        it
        > > is our responsibility not to recklessly endanger innocent people
        > > or their property.
        > >
        > > I think you could be a bit more fair in your proposal to boycott
        > > these manufacturers, however. Do you think a manufacturer that
        > > makes a good leash but allows its sponsored riders to ride
        > > leashless should be spared the shame and negative exposure?
        > > How about a manufacturer whose ads show leashless riding?
        > > Didn't you suggest that they have been irresponsible in
        > > promoting kiteboarding without leashes? Do you plan to follow
        > > through with your tough stance and immediately quit selling
        > > products from manufacturers who allow their sponsored riders
        > > to set a dangerous example, or display ads which show
        > > leashless riding? I'm not suggesting that you do so, but I think
        it
        > > would be an action more consistent with your words.
        > >
        > > I agree that it is our (the riders) responsibility to protect
        others
        > > from the harm which we might introduce. It would be nice for
        > > manufacturers to help with this and produce/make available
        > > reliable safety products, and to encourage their use by example
        > > (riders, ads, etc.). I think others in the business (teaching,
        sales,
        > > promotion, etc.) should promote/encourage safe practices or at
        > > least discourage irresponsibility in whatever way they can. But I
        > > find it a bit strange to boycott manufacturers in the way you've
        > > suggested, sparing many who have consistently encouraged
        > > (by example) leashless riding as it seems contradictory to what
        > > you have expressed as such a strong belief.
        > >
        > > Again, my disagreement with you is small. I completely agree
        > > with you that we, the riders, have the ultimate responsibility
        with
        > > regard to leashes/runaway kites.
        > >
        > > John
        > > Message: 8
        > > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:34:13 -0000
        > > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@y...>
        > > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
        > >
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > > > The silence is deafening!
        > >
        > > Oh well, I guess we'll start making a little noise. I was writing
        my
        > > resonse to your recent post, and by the time mine was posted,
        > > yours is back all fresh and new. Nice one Steve.
        > >
        > > Hmmm,
        > >
        > > Could it be that Mr McC and Mr Loco are thinking on the same
        > > wavelength again? ;-)))
        > >
        > > John



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 8
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:53:45 +1000
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        Subject: waterstart question

        Provided you are well clear of anything you could be dragged into/onto that
        will injure you, and you are wearing a kite leash, and also using the kite
        in winds you feel comfortable with, then hook into the trim loop.
        Having to hook in after you get up and going will develop a habit of going
        downwind as you fumble to get hooked in, plus your arms will tire easily,
        and you cannot sheet out to control the power of the kite, etc.
        Make sure that your board points downwind as you dive the kite down, once
        you are up on the board turn the kite back and up tightly, and lean back
        against the pull of the kite, twisting your upper body so that you can look
        over your shoulder. You should be ponting at least across the wind now, if
        not upwind. If you notice you are slowing down point the board towards the
        kite, if you get going too fast lean back and twist your upper body, putting
        more pressure on your back foot. If you do this properly you should notice
        the kite moves ahead of you. To go upwind the kite should always be slightly
        (at least) ahead of you.
        Have fun!
        Cya and
        Goodwinds
        Steve McCormack
        http://www.kitepower.com.au
        open 7 days, every week.


        > Message: 12
        > Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:04:52 -0000
        > From: "alvargs" <alvargs@...>
        > Subject: waterstart question
        >
        > Hello, I am new to sport and have a question regarding the
        > waterstart. I learned how to fly a four-line kite and have mastered
        > the basics. Now I am ready to practice with a board.
        >
        > when doing the waterstart on a four-line kite, are you supposed to
        > unhook from the chicken loop? The instructional video I saw tells
        > you to unhook, but they are using a two-line kite. I'd appreciate
        > any comments.
        >
        > Thanks,




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 9
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 22:55:39 -0000
        From: "gregwalshau" <Greg.Walsh@...>
        Subject: Re: waterstart question

        When I was a 4-line inflatable newbie I was riding relatively
        underpowered so unhooking allowed me to get a bit more power into the
        first dive to water start and the second dive that got me up and
        planing. I could fulley extend my arms but still have the kite
        powered up.

        Once I got more experience and rode in stronger winds I stayed hooked
        in all the time.

        Regards

        Greg



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 10
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:04:12 +1000
        From: "Kitepower" <sydney@...>
        Subject: What line to leash?

        It must be very frustrating to have a complete rig and it is too cold to use
        it? :-)))

        Seriously though Hernan, there is no need to reinvent the wheel, front line
        leashes do work, they are not more prone to breaking than rear line leashes,
        and I would say the tangles issue is at best 50/50.
        If you break a back line, the kite spins uncontrollably!
        If you break a single front line the same happens.
        If you break your centre leader and lose both front lines, some kites (also
        depends on where and when it breaks) can still be flown with enough control
        to get back to land, safely getting the kite down on your own can be a
        hassle if your leash was on the fronts.

        In any case line breakages always happen with riders under 90 - 100 kg on
        poorly maintained gear, bigger people can break 500lb/225kg lines loading
        for jumps/in crashes etc, that is why we recommend 700lb lines for them.

        Carefully check your gear every few uses or go over the entire system when
        it is not windy, regularly, replace anything thats damaged or frayed.




        > Message: 17
        > Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 11:02:20 -0000
        > From: "hernanhome" <hernanhome@...>
        > Subject: What line to leash?
        >
        > What is safer, to leash the front or the back line?
        >
        > I think back line leashes are safer.
        > 1- less tangles
        > 2- Front lines have a BIG problem: they break more than back
        > lines since they (usually) are much more loaded than back lines,
        > so 50/50 that you get a uncontrolable leashless kite.
        > If you break a back line you still have some control to crash the
        > kite.
        >
        > Still searching...
        >
        > Hernan




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 11
        Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:13:47 -0400
        From: "Dwight & Jacky" <fishersfort@...>
        Subject: Re: North Toro 16m, wind range/performance

        I rode the 16m Toro today for the first time. The lower end range is
        slightly better than a 16m Rhino. I was powered in 10-11 knots. I weight 82
        kgs and rode the Underground 148 x 17" SB. I spent several hours on the
        kite. I thought it went upwind better than my 16m Rhino. I didn't test the
        upper end. It did blow as high as 15 knots for part of the day. I thought
        the kite depowered better than the Rhino. I ride my 16m Rhino in winds up to
        20 knots on a regular basis. I'm sure the Toro can handle that, and more.

        I don't think you'd be sacrificing performance with a Toro. The girl who won
        1st place in Cabarete used the Toro. I think it's better than the Rhino.

        Dwight


        | Hi
        | Can any one help me out with the wind range of the Toro 16m @85kg on
        | a 160 TT.
        |
        | What do these kites jump like in comparison to skoops/airblasts. I
        | like the Idea of the easy relaunch of the Toros with out compromising
        | to much performance. I have a 10.5 Skoop which is an excellent kite
        | with great wind range but is tricky to relaunch when its nose down.
        |
        | Thanks in advance. Cheers Guy.




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 12
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:38:26 -0000
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        Subject: don'r read- test

        tester



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 13
        Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:39:06 -0400
        From: "Eric Hertsens" <eric@...>
        Subject: Congrads to our local cabarete riders

        A little page out off appreciation for their excellent performance

        Congrads to our local riders

        Buy them a beer when you see them in town

        Eric



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 14
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:45:59 -0000
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        Subject: 2003 Cabrinha/Gasstra Equipment

        Those interested in pictures of the latest kites, boards and
        accessories-

        Cabrinha 2003 Blacktips, CO2, Access, fat straps, boards and bars...
        Gasstra 2003 kites and boards...


        -send an email to kiteboarders@...



        ...



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 15
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:51:30 -0000
        From: "looger542000" <LooGer54@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your RESPONSIBILITY!!

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:

        > probably mainly money related reasons, especially now after the
        totally
        > unnecessary death of Silke Goordt!! (there have been many other
        avoidable
        > deaths and injuries too)

        As far as I've read Silke's accident dosen't seem to be leash
        related. It seems more like that it was a bad spot to hold a comp.

        >
        >
        > I am going to publish a list of manufacturers that do comply, and a
        list
        > that do not and it will be put on the AKSA website for all to see,
        the time
        > is now, we cannot give any more slack on this issue.

        Here goes Steve using the AKSA for his own means again.


        >
        > I am also going to insist that our insurance/insurer includes a
        clause, that
        > removes cover to any individual whose actions, by not wearing a
        leash,
        > instigate a claim against AKSA's insurer!

        And will you put in a clause that insists people who caused an
        accident because they wear a leash won't be covered? And why pick on
        the victim of an accident anyway, it is third party cover after all.
        And I'm pretty sure that if the AKSA ever make a claim they'll lose
        that insurance that's what other kite related clibs have been told.


        leash. The
        > minimum standard will be kite permanently attached to rider with a
        secondary
        > release in case the kite must be released to save the life of the
        rider.

        So we can let go sometimes. When? When I think my life is in
        danger? How do I decide that.


        I agree that we all should wear a leash in certain areas. I don't
        think that messing with insurance is the way to do it though.


        Looger



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 16
        Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:59:43 -0000
        From: "looger542000" <LooGer54@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > Are you trying to say that Slingshot (inset any brand of
        inflato/foil),
        > should be held accountable for everything that any of the riders
        sponsored
        > by their company do?

        I don't speak for John here, but if the people sponsering riders
        can't get them to use a leash then who can? All they have to do it
        make it part of the contract riders sign. Most sponsered riders
        can't publicly ride other brands of kite for example, so manufacters
        allready do control riders. John Messenger is sponserd by KitePower,
        I think, you could easily say to him that he must wear a leash for
        photos(I've seen lots of photo's of him with out one).


        > Maybe you could take some personal responsibility and just be
        quiet, while
        > those of us who really care about the future of this sport,
        actually do
        > something about ensuring there is a future for you and everyone to
        enjoy.

        But he said he agrees with you!!!! Anyone who doesn't agree 100%
        with you has no opion I guess.


        Looger




        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 17
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:04:38 -0000
        From: "hernanhome" <hernanhome@...>
        Subject: Re: What line to leash?

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        front line
        > leashes do work, they are not more prone to breaking than rear
        line leashes,
        > and I would say the tangles issue is at best 50/50.

        I said that usually front lines are twisted. Its a fact. A sliding front
        line leash could not work well if the line is twisted with the other.

        > If you break a back line, the kite spins uncontrollably!
        > If you break a single front line the same happens.

        Not agree. Single front line breakage is worst.

        > If you break your centre leader and lose both front lines, some
        kites (also
        > depends on where and when it breaks) can still be flown with
        enough control

        What kites?

        > to get back to land, safely getting the kite down on your own
        can be a
        > hassle if your leash was on the fronts.
        >
        > In any case line breakages always happen with riders under
        90 - 100 kg on
        > poorly maintained gear, bigger people can break 500lb/225kg
        lines loading
        > for jumps/in crashes etc, that is why we recommend 700lb
        lines for them.

        Line breakage happends to well maintained equipment too.
        Lines are fragile and its conmon to have unexpected failures
        specially if you have a "touch" with other kite lines. (not so rare at
        a crouded spot)

        > Carefully check your gear every few uses or go over the entire
        system when
        > it is not windy, regularly, replace anything thats damaged or
        frayed.

        I agree this time!

        And I m not trying to reinvent the wheel, this sport is in his
        infancy. So I m not so sure that this issue is closed . In fact, and
        you know it, many comercial safety systems are not so safe.

        Regards
        Hernan



        > > From: "hernanhome" <hernanhome@i...>
        > > Subject: What line to leash?
        > >
        > > What is safer, to leash the front or the back line?
        > >
        > > I think back line leashes are safer.
        > > 1- less tangles
        > > 2- Front lines have a BIG problem: they break more than back
        > > lines since they (usually) are much more loaded than back
        lines,
        > > so 50/50 that you get a uncontrolable leashless kite.
        > > If you break a back line you still have some control to crash
        the
        > > kite.
        > >
        > > Still searching...
        > >
        > > Hernan



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 18
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:17:53 -0000
        From: "throb_list" <captain1@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        Steve,

        As always you are right, but there is one problem with you plan that
        you maybe overlooked.

        Firstly let me say yes it is all about money. Always!!!! But it is
        not only about the manufacturers money there are others involved.

        Firstly if you think that the local beach authorities are banning the
        sport for "safety reasons" you are wrong. The main reason they are
        banning it is money. Or more correctly - liability! We all saw what
        happened here in Oz with the moron jumping into the sand bar and
        sueing the councel for $4M. The same will happen if someone gets hit
        by a runaway kite - the councel will get sued for not controlling the
        sport.

        Then along comes AKSA and offers public liability insurance. This
        serves as a very strong argument point for the AKSA's crusade aganist
        the sport getting banned. From the councels perspective there is no
        longer an issue - any liability is covered by said insurance - the
        sport has not been made any safer and in all honesty the beachgoers
        are no safer but the councels coffers are, and lets face it that is
        waht really matters!!

        Now the AKSA imposes a clause in the cover saying anyone without a
        leash gets no cover - yeah looks llike a great idea to enforce safety
        and should teach those leashless riders a lesson.

        Now consider this - a 19 year old goes out with a second hand kite he
        saved up for. he is convinced to become a member of the AKSA for teh
        cool T-shirt and hence is covered for public liability. Now this kid
        want to be a pro like the guys in teh magazines and like them he
        decided to ride leashless. Second week out smething happens - he lets
        go and next thing we know a 8 year old little girl on the beach is a
        cripple.

        Now the parents are really pissed and want compensation - they visit
        their local shark - I mean lawyer. Lawyer does some investigation and
        finds that the kid is not covered due to a clause added by the AKSA.
        No good going after the kid - shit what does he have that would be of
        any value? Who to get then - the councel they have heaps of cash!!

        So then the councel gets sued and looses a couple million. Now the
        councel is pissed cause they thought there was public liability
        cover. They look into it and find that the kid did have the cover -
        so what was wrong?? more investigation find that the kid was not
        covered because of a clause entered and enforced by the AKSA!!!

        If I were in the councels position here I'd bann the sport outright
        and close my doors to any other negotiations witht he AKSA or any
        body representing the kitesurfing community.


        In my opinion this is a real scenario. Do yourself a favour and look
        at it from teh perspective of the other bodies (the authorities) and
        then do it with their agenda in mind. Dont think of safety but think
        of money - after all that is exactly what they are thinking of.





        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 19
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 02:02:47 -0000
        From: "callum_downie" <callum_downie@...>
        Subject: Re: 2003 Cabrinha/Gasstra Equipment

        Dude you email address gets cut off on the yahoo groups site, can you
        send me the pics, or links to the pics to
        callum_downie at hotmail.com where the at is an @ and there is no
        spaces around it.
        Cheers
        Callum

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@y...> wrote:
        > Those interested in pictures of the latest kites, boards and
        > accessories-
        >
        > Cabrinha 2003 Blacktips, CO2, Access, fat straps, boards and bars...
        > Gasstra 2003 kites and boards...
        >
        >
        > -send an email to kiteboarders@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > ...



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 20
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 02:53:18 -0000
        From: "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@...>
        Subject: Re: 2003 Cabrinha/Gaastra Equipment

        my digital camera is playing up at the moment but you will be able
        to view them at http://www.geocities.com/kiteboarders

        sorry for the delay

        ...

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "callum_downie" <callum_downie@h...> wrote:
        > Dude you email address gets cut off on the yahoo groups site, can
        you
        > send me the pics, or links to the pics to
        > callum_downie at hotmail.com where the at is an @ and there is no
        > spaces around it.
        > Cheers
        > Callum
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@y..., "kiteboarders" <kiteboarders@y...> wrote:
        > > Those interested in pictures of the latest kites, boards and
        > > accessories-
        > >
        > > Cabrinha 2003 Blacktips, CO2, Access, fat straps, boards and
        bars...
        > > Gasstra 2003 kites and boards...
        > >
        > >
        > > -send an email to kiteboarders@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ...



        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________

        Message: 21
        Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:03:38 -1000
        From: "Badcoconut" <badcoconut@...>
        Subject: Re: Re: Hole in bladder

        Thanks for the great deal on bladders Andy

        And for anybody else with a bladder full of holes I recommend replacing the
        bladder and use the patched one for a spare
        Mahalo
        Badcoconut...
        ___________________________________________________________________________
        www.badcoconut.com
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "KiteHIGH - North Shore" <andy@...>
        To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 9:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [ksurf] Re: Hole in bladder


        > Come and see me in the shop Bad ass oh sorry...coconut.
        >
        > In have 9.5m LE's ad struts:)
        >
        > Andy
        >
        > >--- In kitesurf@y..., "Badcoconut" <badcoconut@h...> wrote:
        > > > I just patched 26 pinholes in my leading edge bladder last night
        > >the best
        > > > way I found is to submerge one section at a time in water and roll
        > >the
        > > > bladder slowly some pinholes wont show bubbles at certain angles.
        > >Don't fly
        > > > your kite in trees, unless you have one of those "tree ARC's"
        > > >
        > > > Badcoconut...
        >
        >
        > Sincerely
        > Andy Heaton
        >
        > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
        > http://www.kitesurfcam.com
        > http://www.alohakiteboarding.com
        >
        > E: support@...
        > P: 1 866 646 7835 (TOLL Free USA)
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
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        > The Original - Complete new packages from only $879!! FREE USA mainland
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        >
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        >



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        Message: 22
        Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
        From: <perlerup@...>
        Subject: Is annyone going to the megaevent in skanor falsterbo SWEDEN?

        Hi!!!
        I just whant to know if annyone is going.
        Im but I would like to know who Im competing aganinst.
        What type of level.
        Hope to see you there!
        Sara

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        Message: 23
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 06:05:46 -0000
        From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        Hey Steve,

        You didn't quite understand my point, but that's okay buddy. Relax and
        I'll try to be more clear this time.

        I meant that I am in total agreement with your
        leash/leashless/personal responsibility thoughts. I feel the same way.
        Really. I agree. Seriously. Do I need to get a notarized signature and
        maybe hit the polygragh for a few hours to verify? I agree. We riders
        are 100% responsible for taking all reasonable measures to protect the
        safety of others from our activities. You are right. Okay?

        If I want to go out and buy another new kite I just don't want
        somebody forcing a new bar and safety system down my throat. If I want
        to make a safety system of my own which is safe, or simply use my
        preferred commercial one, I should be able to. They are readily
        available and easy to make at home. Like you said, it is MY
        responsibility to use a leash. I think manufacturers should make them
        available and make them reliable, but it is MY responsibility to use
        it. But if I want a Naish kite and want to use my Wipika or Takoon or
        Slingshot safety devices or my own, I don't want to be forced to pay
        for still another system.

        Your words show you feel strongly and I'm sure many of us appreciate
        your commitment toward safety and personal responsibility. I just
        think it's a little odd that you're willing to come down so hard on
        companies that don't make what you'd call an acceptable system, yet
        grant complete immunity to others who have clearly demonstrated (by
        their representatives, riders, events, demos, advertising, promotions,
        videos etc.) that riding leashless is acceptable. Seems kind of
        contradictory to me.

        I'd guess if you were to boycott all companies who had leashless team
        riders, leashless riders in ads/promotional videos/photos, or in other
        ways condoned or in some way accepted leashless riders you wouldn't be
        able to carry ANY brand of kite.

        This little comment...

        > Maybe you could take some personal responsibility and just be quiet,
        while
        > those of us who really care about the future of this sport, actually
        do
        > something about ensuring there is a future for you and everyone to
        enjoy.
        > If you do not promote the solution (which is kite leashes) YOU
        (anyone) are
        > part of the problem!

        ...is pretty interesting. Who are you to tell me to just be quiet, and
        who are you to suggest I don't really care about the future of this
        sport? What brands are you selling that have never promoted their
        products being used in a leashless fashion (in ads, promos, sponsored
        rider demos etc.)?

        As far as your problem with my current favorite brand of kites, I can
        say that my first Peter Lynn kites were purchased from you, your
        service was very good, and although you never asked me once about
        whether I knew about safety systems or leashes, never even brought up
        the topic, I don't hold you even slightly responsible. It is MY
        responsibility.

        Anyway Steve, I only meant to agree with your thoughts on personal
        responsibility, and to point out that if you TRULY want to penalize
        companies that don't promote using a kite leash then you should
        consider broadening the list a bit, which might very well mean
        boycotting all the brands that you sell. Sometimes it's tough to be
        consistent.

        And perhaps you could consider being less rude and disrespectful to
        those with whom you disagree.

        Cya and
        Be happy,

        John


        --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > G'day John
        >
        > Same wavelength? I don't think so, I usually ignore your posts
        now,
        > especially since you have demonstrated your contempt for me, many
        times on
        > this group.
        > Your message is foolish and contradictory, as if I or anyone could
        have any
        > control over what someone does, after they leave our stores or
        schools!
        > Are you trying to say that Slingshot (inset any brand of
        inflato/foil),
        > should be held accountable for everything that any of the riders
        sponsored
        > by their company do?
        > If you are, and it sounds like it, then you are apparently
        attempting to
        > cause trouble again IMO, in a pathetic attempt to defend the maker
        of your
        > favourite brand of kite, by trying to make sure they are not alone
        at the
        > top of the podium for 1st place in irresponsible kite selling!
        >
        > Buyers boycotting a manufacturer is one way of getting those
        companies
        > attention, and there are many other ways too, including being named
        on
        > club/association websites as brands to avoid!!
        >
        > Did your favourite brand of kite come with an adequate leash or
        instructions
        > John?
        >
        > Maybe you could take some personal responsibility and just be quiet,
        while
        > those of us who really care about the future of this sport, actually
        do
        > something about ensuring there is a future for you and everyone to
        enjoy.
        > If you do not promote the solution (which is kite leashes) YOU
        (anyone) are
        > part of the problem!
        >
        > Steve McCormack
        > Secretary
        > Australian Kite Surfing Association
        > http://www.aksa.com.au
        > info@a...
        >
        > > Message: 7
        > > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:29:17 -0000
        > > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@y...>
        > > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your RESPONSIBILITY!!
        > >
        > > Hi Steve,
        > >
        > > I think your title for this thread "KITE LEAS(H)ES are your
        > > RESPONSIBILITY!!" is pretty excellent. I agree with you. I think
        it
        > > is our responsibility not to recklessly endanger innocent people
        > > or their property.
        > >
        > > I think you could be a bit more fair in your proposal to boycott
        > > these manufacturers, however. Do you think a manufacturer that
        > > makes a good leash but allows its sponsored riders to ride
        > > leashless should be spared the shame and negative exposure?
        > > How about a manufacturer whose ads show leashless riding?
        > > Didn't you suggest that they have been irresponsible in
        > > promoting kiteboarding without leashes? Do you plan to follow
        > > through with your tough stance and immediately quit selling
        > > products from manufacturers who allow their sponsored riders
        > > to set a dangerous example, or display ads which show
        > > leashless riding? I'm not suggesting that you do so, but I think
        it
        > > would be an action more consistent with your words.
        > >
        > > I agree that it is our (the riders) responsibility to protect
        others
        > > from the harm which we might introduce. It would be nice for
        > > manufacturers to help with this and produce/make available
        > > reliable safety products, and to encourage their use by example
        > > (riders, ads, etc.). I think others in the business (teaching,
        sales,
        > > promotion, etc.) should promote/encourage safe practices or at
        > > least discourage irresponsibility in whatever way they can. But I
        > > find it a bit strange to boycott manufacturers in the way you've
        > > suggested, sparing many who have consistently encouraged
        > > (by example) leashless riding as it seems contradictory to what
        > > you have expressed as such a strong belief.
        > >
        > > Again, my disagreement with you is small. I completely agree
        > > with you that we, the riders, have the ultimate responsibility
        with
        > > regard to leashes/runaway kites.
        > >
        > > John
        > > Message: 8
        > > Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 23:34:13 -0000
        > > From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@y...>
        > > Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are your (OUR) RESPONSIBILITY!!
        > >
        > > --- In kitesurf@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
        > > > The silence is deafening!
        > >
        > > Oh well, I guess we'll start making a little noise. I was writing
        my
        > > resonse to your recent post, and by the time mine was posted,
        > > yours is back all fresh and new. Nice one Steve.
        > >
        > > Hmmm,
        > >
        > > Could it be that Mr McC and Mr Loco



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        Message: 24
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 07:03:46 -0000
        From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
        Subject: Re: KITE LEASES are yours/our RESPONSIBILITY!!

        G'day Steve,

        This is getting to be a pretty interesting thread. Nice work, you've
        got a lot of us thinking on the subjects of safety, personal
        responsibility, manufacturer responsibility, setting example, leashes,
        money, insurance, and good ol' fashioned being consistent when you
        talk tough. Do you really sponsor rider(s) who ride leashless in the
        public eye? Is this something you consider consistent with your strong
        commitment to discouraging leashless riding? Or is this Looger just
        some mean person who is making up a little story here to stir up
        trouble?

        Thanks for bringing up a fascinating and relevant topic. You are
        certainly a very special member of this group.

        Appreciatively,

        John

        --- In kitesurf@y..., "looger542000" <LooGer54@h...> wrote:
        >John Messenger is sponserd by KitePower,
        > I think, you could easily say to him that he must wear a leash for
        > photos(I've seen lots of photo's of him with ou



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        Message: 25
        Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 07:23:51 -0000
        From: "memueropormix2" <memueropormix2@...>
        Subject: strong wind kite

        We are always talking about low wind kites but what about strong
        wind kites?

        I mean, x2 8, takoon 6.5, f-one 9.1 ...

        I want to buy one of these but still donĀ“t know which one!!!

        I would appreciate comments about these kites, windrange, feeling,
        problems...

        And what about X2 10??? Do you think that the x2 8 is necessary or
        the x2 10 is enough. For those who have tried it, do you think that
        is possible to hold it in gusty winds of 26-28 knods without too much
        stress???

        Which one is the best stronge wind kite???

        Thanks for your comments...

        Gaztea



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